Horrors of horrors

Yet they don't recommend either one. Wonder why?

They're good cars, well built. Yet nobody knows what they will do long term, how they will keep up.

I stopped believing all I read in CR about 1954, when they rated a Hudson over a Chrysler. All very well, but they neglected to mention that if you bought a Hudson, the trade in value on anything else would be next to nil.

They make an awful lot of very subjective statements based on the opinion of their testers, not hard objective facts. I often read that some car or other is difficult to get in and out of, and you have to wonder if the tester is six foot eight and 400 pounds.

Ford knows what their vehicles are worth....

Bias? ;)

mike

Nobody? ;)

When it comes down to it CR are basically personal opinions, no more no less.

mike hunt

Then why would any sensible person pay more for something that CR says is not as good, like an Accord or a 4cy Camry?

mike hunt

If you get burned by a company's product and/or service, do you look forward to rewarding them at some point in the future when they've supposedly improved? Some people don't even consider the idea.

You mean like the people that have problems with their Toyotas, that we hear from so often in the NG? Maybe that is why more Americans buy GM and Ford vehicles than they buy Toyotas ;)

mike hunt

Maybe it's the KINDS of problems people have, which make it clear that the manufacturer didn't give a f*ck.

1) Pinto wagon (stop laughing): Stick shift was attached to tranny with a threaded nylon collar. 3" from that point was the exhaust pipe. The heat melted the plastic collar. No more shifting. The dealer claimed they'd never seen this happen before. Bullshit. I fixed it the 2nd time. In order to lift the round collar off the ball at the bottom of the stick, I had to remove all the carpet molding, both front seats and the entire console. 2) 92 Taurus: Some sort of fusible link near the starter had pretty much zero protection from road spray. It corroded and killed the car. The dealer fixed it 3 times under warranty, but never improved it. I finally paid to have my independent mechanic take care of it. He modified the arrangement, and it never happened again.

I've had a couple of minor quirks with my latest Toyota, but nothing like this bullshit.

"... hear from so often in the NG?"

Is that how we know Toyotas have problems? By checking this NG? Looking at the subject lines for the posts in this NG, I am drawn to the conclusion that the Toyotas with the most serious problems must be these models:

The Toyota Iraq The Toyota Limbaugh The Toyota Bush The Toyota Rumsfeld The Toyota Dims The Toyota Republicans The Toyota Terrorist The Toyota Outlook Express

We hear about problems with those "Toyotas" many times per day. Other models, not so much.

So what is your point? Does the word sludge ring a bell? Ford no longer sells the Pinto or the 92 Taurus, one could not buy a new one if they wanted. The Fusion, the car Ford sell today was rated higher, by CR, than the Accord or the Camry.

For the record I own a 1971 Pinto, with 300K on the clock, that looks and runs just fine. One of my friend that bought my former 92 Sable with 20K on the clock now has over 200K trouble free miles on the clock

mike hunt

How about Toyotas sludge problem or the millions recalled for defective steering, wheels that fall off etc.? The fact is ALL manufactures make some that are not up to snuff on occasion and Toyota is no exception just because you think so. CR was the bible of the Toyota owners when their car was rated the highest, now all of a sudden CR is not so perfect when the rate the Fusion above the Accord and Camry and point out the Fusion costs thousands less too boot. ;)

mike hunt

I don't care what CR says any more. You have to be an idiot to patronize a company you've had two hideous experiences with. But, for reasons which verge on some sort of patriotic insanity, a lot of people insist on staying with the American car makers. I know of no other business category that would keep customers, after repeatedly raping them.

You mean now that the Camry is not their top rated car? ;)

Defective conclusion. My opinion has no effect on theirs.

You must spend all your time driving your many cars between your many houses.

Don't try selling that Pinto, I'm not interested. You may be able to trade it on a Vega.

When was the last time that was brought up in this NG? Not recently that I recall.

I don't see any evidence that Toyota has lost the confidence of its customer base. Unlike GM and Ford. Nor do I see any particular evidence that CR has lost the confidence of Toyota owners. I imagine some of them, having been steered to Toyota and Honda by good reports in CR and having subsequently had good experiences with these Toyotas and Hondas will give CRs evaluation of the Fusion/Milan due consideration.

I don't mind if CR says good things about a Ford that they think may be a good car. I've even contemplated purchasing a Ford in recent times (specifically the Escape hybrid - and CR has had nice things to say about the Escape in the past). I mentioned it to my wife, thinking that perhaps she was willing to let bygones be bygones vis-a-vis our previous Ford ownership experience... The discussion went like this:

"Hey, hon, we need a car and I was thinking about looking at a Ford. Some of the new ones appear to be quite nice."

"Are you nuts?"

As it is, GM and Ford do not compete on cars with Toyota and Honda. They compete on price with Toyota and Honda. If somebody wants 4 doors and 200 inches of metal that can usually be persuaded to leave the driveway in the morning and their chief criteria is price or they need that credit-rating blind financing that GM and Ford are offering to work the deal, they go to GM or Ford. When they want a nice car at a good value, they go to Toyota or Honda. That's why Toyota and Honda are MAKING money and GM and Ford are LOSING money.

If Ford has gotten the quality/reliability under control, it's likely that some people, based on CRs discussion, will test the waters with a Fusion/Milan and have good experiences. Over time, these good experiences will percolate through the marketplace's consciousness and Ford will find their cars command better resale values and their selling prices will firm up and they will see improved profits. If they last long enough.

Most modern corporations have come to understand that it is far, far cheaper to keep a customer than to win a new one. GM and Ford ignored this proposition. When people turned away from GM and Ford and finally bought those little Japanese deathtraps and discovered that, hey! this car is pretty nice and it's actually as safe as a Chevy and it doesn't break down...!, then the GM and Ford "Screw the Customer" plan kind of ran out of steam.

Me: "Don't you care if I ever buy another Ford again?"

Ford Customer 'Service' Rep: "No. I'm not in sales."

And, straining my brain mightily, I can't think of anyone I know who owns a Toyota or Honda being less than satisfied with it. I know at least 8 famillies with Toyota Siennas that allegedly have the "SludgeMaster" V6 and not one of them has had any trouble at all. My Sienna runs perfectly. And, considering it's just a 3.0L engine, it has amazing zip. The neighbor's got a 13-year old Honda that looks new. The only repair so far was to replace the muffler.

On the other hand, pretty much every member of my extended family who has owned a Ford has replaced the transmission at less than 100K miles and sometimes more than once before 100K miles. Everybody I know who has ever owned a WindStar has come to grief (3 bad trannies and one threw a rod) at less than 100K miles.