How hard is a valve adjustment?

There was a stretch where Tercels had electronic carburetors which were very finicky and almost not worth trying to fix. I don't know if this Tercel is one of them or is fuel injected. The fuel injected ones were reliable but ones with electronic carbs could cause the emissions failures. The Tercels with the electronic carbs were also prone to carbon buildup that was cleaned with a walnut shell blast. Also, the chances of passing emissions are better if you take the car out on the highway and give it a chance to "clear its pipes."

Toyotas tend to run a lot better on OEM ignition components - some aftermarket ones cause drivability problems.

Since the owner is getting rid of the car, try running some engine flush through and changing the oil again and see if that quiets the tapping sound.

It is fuel injected.

You mean, run it at high speed to get the cat good and hot, that is generic advice for any emissions check and I tried that the first time I tried getting it through emissions.

I'll be sure to pass that info along to NAPA which is where I bought the Napa/Echlin cap and rotor, and the Beldin Blue Max plug wires, all of which looked identical to the OEM parts on the car. Can we have a show of hands of everyone who thinks NAPA parts are not as good as OEM parts?

Come off it, give me a break, I'm not a complete newbie at this. And the spark plugs I used are the NGK parts listed as recommended in the owners manual. I also replaced the PCV valve and air filter.

If these are solid lifters or no lifters at all, how will engine flush make any difference? I actually did buy a bottle of engine flush, the kind you use right before changing the oil, before I discovered that they might be solid lifters.

Hey Bozo: You asked some questions & Ray gave some good answers & advice.....Where do you get off having an attitude about what he said. Actually you probably have a stuck valve. Very common on this era Tercel when not maintained properly. You'll need to pull the head to make necessary repairs to pass inspection. Been there\done that. dc

I don't.

The question asked was how difficult a valve adjustment on this engine would be, and if that would make a difference in emissions. Neither was answered. The advice on the engine flush was not bad, although I had already known it, it would have probably been prudent to add that this is a last ditch attempt, although a number of the engine flush products on the shelves already say that right on the bottle.

Now as far as the rest goes, well the year of the vehicle was supplied, a few minutes looking via Google would have established that this year engine did not have a carburetor, which would have taken less time than typing in a whole raft of advice for a carbureted car. I also don't appreciate the knee-jerk response that dealer-supplied parts are automatically "better" that seems to go on in a lot of forums - that is nothing more than FUD and baloney, since most times the dealer parts are OEMed by the same manufacturers that make the aftermarket stuff.

Sure, there's some really cheapo crap out there - just visit your nearest Autozone and you can ask for their "inexpensive" stuff and gamble it might work. But if your going to slam "some" aftermarket parts then you better start naming names. It is not fair to many of the aftermarket suppliers who do make good parts to be tarred by the same brush.

Thank you, that is very helpful. The only correction I would make is that the new owner will have to pull the head, assuming that the engine flush thing doesen't work. My experience with stuff like the engine flush thing is that they usually don't, but it's worth a try for the cost. And if I had known just how poorly the owner had maintained this car I wouldn't have even wasted the time opening the hood. The whole point in getting an emissions pass was to add some value to this before selling it, but it looks like the advice of "no good deed goes unpunished" applies for this one.

You really need to take the good advice of using OEM parts, not only on Toyotas but also on GM and possibly other makes. The difference is that part for part, the Toyota ones will typically be more reasonably priced than other OEMs. Especially when it comes to ignition, brake and other driveability related parts. The question is, do you want to work on your car, or do you want to fix it?

Also true is the fact that your valve noise is most likely due to a sticking valve, not just an adjustment. While changing the oil is always a good idea, it will generally not correct this problem by itself. You may be lucky enough to be able to remove the valve cover, remove the cam follower/rocker arm for the affected valve, and then spray it heavily with Gumout or other strong solvent while working it up and down. Be careful when doing this to not apply any side pressure, since the valve stems are of small diameter and will bend easily. Once you get it as free as possible, reassemble and run the engine for 5 minutes. Then change the oil and filter. If this does not correct it, then it will reply require pulling the head to correct permanently.

Lee Richardson Mech-Tech Evansville, Indiana

Sory, I didn't mean to imply that you did not know what you were doing, but there are a lot of people who are not aware of this simple trick, so I put it out there.

Obviously, the NAPA folks are going to say that the stuff they sell is as good as OEM parts, and the folks at Toyota will say that the OEM parts are better. I'm not totally against aftermarket parts; I've used them many times. I doubt if the PCV and air filter have any bearing on the emissions failure.

I have a fair amount of experience dealing with Toyotas, and in that experience, I have seen *some* aftermarket ignition parts cause driveability problems that were cleared up when replaced with OEM parts. NGK is an OEM supplier to Toyota, and assuming the store gave you the correct application, they should not be a problem. The aftermarket cap, rotor, and wires may or may not be the cause of the problem.

The high hydrocarbon numbers imply incomplete combustion, which is why I would look at the ignition system if it was me working on the car.

If it is fuel injected, a leaking injector or poor spray pattern may also cause incomplete complete combustion. The correct method for checking injectors is to remove them and install them in the SST injector checker and check the spary pattern. Few people have one of these SST's at home, so you can try a bottle of Chevron Techron or Toyota branded fuel injector cleaner and see if that makes a difference.

If the car has solid lifters or no lifters, an engine flush probably won't make a difference in the tapping noise. If it has hydraulic lifters or hydraulic timing belt tensioner, it may make a difference. The cost and effort for doing one of those pre-oil change flushes is very low, nothing ventured, nothing gained, which is why I recommended it.

If the engine uses shims to adjust valve clearance, then adjustment is a pain because you'll need an assortment of shims to get it right.

Yup, you're right about not getting a direct answer to your question - sorry about that ;-)

I did try to give more direct answers in my other follow-up post.

Yes, I could have spend a little more time researching, but it was late at night and my intent was to try to help by giving a quick answer before I went to bed.

I also don't appreciate the knee-jerk response that

That was not a knee-jerk response regarding aftermarket parts. I specifically mentioned *some ignition* parts. It is generally not my style to badmouth any particular brands, and I'm not going to say that all aftermarket ignition parts for all Toyotas are bad. I have seen Champion, Delco, and Napa branded ignition parts cause ignition problems in Toyotas, and I've seen them work satisfactorally. The reason I recommend OEM ignition parts in Toyotas is because of this hit-or miss (no pun intended) experience with aftermarket ignition parts.

I knew about the stuck valves on this vintage Tercel and completely forgot about it when responding - I apologize for blowing it on the valves.

Hi Ray,

No, my apologies, you were right to mention the cat trick since other readers may be helped. I was just irritated with this stupid car situation, the friend that owned this vehicle went and moved and couldn't take it, so I offered to sell it.

If I had known how badly it was maintained I would have kept my mouth closed. Even on my old cars that I've sold before for $500 were maintained better than this! I guess I've learned that you cannot judge how well anyone takes care of their cars just by knowing them.

I bought a can of Seafoam and I'll try that before the pulling the valve cover and working it with gumout and pliers. I am pretty sure if I got the valve working it would in fact pass, the two emissions reports from the two times I've tried to pass it were very revealing. The first attempt had extremely low CO and high HC, the second has normal CO and high HC. The valve wasn't sticking during the first test, or if it was it was so quiet about it that I couldn't tell. The first report was textbook misfiring, the second report really indicates a sticking valve, as a non-firing cylinder will dump a bunch of HC into the exhaust. The valve started sticking wthin 20 minutes of replacing the plugs and ignition, so obviously what was going on here is that with the fixed ignition, now the cylinder was actually firing all the time, so the cylinder temps were actually up where they were supposed to be, that probaby startd cooking all the sludge and crap in the combustion chamber and on the valve stems, so now instead of slimy gooy crap on the valve stem I had hard baked on crap, and the hard baked on crap jammed the valve open.

The other thing that sucked was the ignition wires and cap and rotor totaled $70 from NAPA, who was the only place that actually stocked them. If the valve had been sticking before buying those parts I would never have bought them and just sold the car as it was, and if the buyer had insisted on taking it through emissions before purchase, then oh well, knock off $300 from the price. Now, with the valve making noise, my friend will lose more than $300 on this unless I do something about it, so as they say I'm stuck. I can easily see that what is the most likely outcome here is that eventually I'll either get it to pass or get it quiet again, and all the effort on it to get a good emissions report will not add nearly enough to the sale price for it to have been worth all the screwing with it I'm going to end up doing.

Ted

Ted,

I don't have any personal experience with Sea Foam but I've read good things about it in this ng. Some technician friends have mentioned that Motor-Vac also works well but that involves finding a facility that has invested in the equipment. At one time, Toyota dealers had to invest in a walnut-shell blaster to fix carbon buildup problems with Tercels. I don't know if the setup would work on this Tercel or not and the service is fairly expensive.

Since this is a car you're just getting rid of, I'd just give the Sea Foam a shot and get rid of the car so you don't have to invest more time, money, or sleep in it.

Good luck!

Well here's kind of how I look at that. Yes, every once in a while you come across an OEM part that is cheaper. For example, take an EGR valve for a Chrysler 3.3L, it is about $60 from the dealer, about $65-70 from aftermarket. But, for every once of those rareities the dealer sells hundeds of other parts that the aftermarket does where the dealers really stick it to you. So I have pretty much decided that the aftermarket is going to get all my business unless there is a part that is so horribly designed (like a motor mount for the above mentioned Chrysler engine) that it is obviously substandard. And I'm very willing to pay a few bucks extra for 1 part out of a bag of 20 that I'm buying from a place like NAPA than what the dealer would charge, because I'm still saving -overall-.

If there was a local dealer in the area that had -reasonable- pricing and return policies I would frequent them. But, all of them sell the manufacturers parts at far above what I can find those same manufacturers parts for online, even including shipping, and all of the dealer parts departments in the area do not take returns -at all- even if the part was -never- used, never taken out of the box or the bag, not gotten all greasy, and returned the day after I bought it. This pretty much reduces you to the practice of starting the repair, then getting everything apart and taking the defective part into the dealer, even when you know what you need in advance (such as brake pads) because there is always the chance that some slight change in the part will cause trouble. That can turn an hour brake job into a 3 hour brake job, and forget doing anything on Saturday since all the dealer parts places are closed after 1:00pm Sat, and none open Sunday.

I had one dealer once, Nissan it was, who I ordered a part from, and it came a week later and was all filthy and greasy, clearly was used, (not worn, just used, they must have tried using it and found it was the wrong one or something) and they would not order another one, and told me that the part was fine and to just take it and basically shut up about it. I did force them to write a note for me guarenteeing that I could return the part if I found out later it was damaged.

And as for buying the factory OEM parts online, well that's fine if you know in advance exactly what you need. It's not fine if you are 3/4 the way through a project and discover something broken that was covered up, or some such. And while the online people seem to have reasonable return policies, you have to pay to ship it back.

I will try that if I have to, in these sticking valve situations does the valve usually stick below the level of the piston head, this is an interference engine I think ( 3E-E)

Good morning, TQ. Most recent bad experience with NAPA was a cap, rotor, plugs and wires for a '97 Chevy pick up with the 4.3 liter V6. Complaint was rough running especially on the first start of the day and when it was damp or rainy out. Trouble was the same or maybe a little worse with the NAPA parts, but went away entirely when a new cap and rotor from the dealer was installed. And in my opinion, NAPA is the best of the aftermarket suppliers. Anymore, all parts are expensive, so in my opinion it is worth the extra to get the OEM part and pretty well be assured that it is the best available for the application. Now if I ran a service facility and -knew- a given aftermarket part would work well in a given application for a lower price, I would go with it. But the cars I drive anymore are so reliable, and the number of parts I need is so small, that for me it makes more sense to go with the OEM. I have even in some cases started letting the dealer take care of some things I used to do myself. Again, more money, and the hassle of taking it in, but I have had very good experience of them doing it right the first time.

I am not sure if your engine is an interference design or not. I know the earlier models were not, that was in my opinion one big advantage that Toyota had over Honda. But if yours is an interference design, then yes, the piston may well be kissing the valve. The good news is that all that is holding it open is the sticky goo, not the actual cam and valve train as would be the case with a broken timing belt. So the chance of damage will be reduced the sooner you can get it freed up. If the car has been sitting a long time and there is old gas in the tank, it can cause this sticking problem. Once you get the valve free, fresh oil in the crankcase, and nice fresh gas coming through, the problem will probably be solved.

As for returning parts, that just is not cool unless they give us an incorrect or truly defective one. First, if they take back returned parts, that means they sell parts that have possibly been in someone elses possession. For example, even if somebody returned that bad NAPA distributor cap I had unopened, there is still nothing saying it could not have been dropped or otherwise damaged by the original purchaser. Second, returned parts drive up prices for everyone else due to the extra handling, etc. required.

Lee Richardson Mech-Tech

"Toyota Questioner" wrote in message news:newscache$6qk0xi$l132$ snipped-for-privacy@news.ipinc.net...

I don't agree with this but there are caveats. First let's talk about the kind of returns I'm talking about. There's 4 kinds of common legitimate returns of auto parts out there:

1) Defect, part installed, found to be non-working. Common on stuff like rebuilt alternators, water pumps, etc. (why you should always have the rebuilt alternator tested on their testing machine before you leave) 2) Warranty returns - part fails within warranty period. For example a new radiator starts leaking. 3) Didn't need it - purchaser buys part in advance thinking they will need it for a job, turns out they didn't need it. 4) Wrong part - part sold to the purchaser based on a cross reference out of a book and purchaser goes to install the part and finds out it doesen't fit, or nearly fits but not quite, etc. Common with stuff like aftermarket fuel pumps, generic one size fits all filters, etc.

Then there's 2 kinds of illigitimate returns, I am not talking about these since it's a given that they drive up prices for everyone:

1) Scams where the buyer substitutes the replaced part with a broken one out of the vehicle and tries to return it. 2) Shotgunners who don't know how to diagnose problems and just are guessing, so buy part after part, trying them out until they hit the broken one.

I don't see how returns 1-4 will drive up prices. For #1 & #2, the manufacturer bears the cost, and furthermore those returns are very important because they tell the manufacturer if there's an inherent defect in their part, they can then fix that. For #3, once again that isn't a problem because the retailer just reshelves the part and sells it to someone else, and the retailer is happy to do this because they make a profit on the parts that the buyer used. For #4, well that's something the manufacturer and the retailer can work out. If the manufacturer is for example shipping fuel pumps that are supposed to work on years 75-85 GM,s and they only work on years 75-80 GM's due to a change GM made in 81, well the manufacturer needs to know this so they update their cross reference, and the retailer can then either hang on to the pump and sell it to someone with a 75-80 GM that needs a pump, or return it to the manufacturer who can sell it to another retailer. In #4, the problem is a manufactures problem anyway since they put out the invalid cross reference, and they should eat the cost of the part.

And as for the idea that with #3 the purchaser might have dropped the part and damaged it, well the retailer needs to employ decent people who actually look at the stuff coming back for defects like cracks and damage that might have occurred from dropping. And the truth is that ALL part sale prices have a built in allowance for shipping damage. The truth is that a lot of times shipping damage is latent, and your not going to find it out until much later. All of the major shippers allow you to make shipping damage claims, but they all restrict claim periods to 24 hours after receipt, or other similar rediculous stuff, and the manufacturers as a rule don't pay shipping damage claims, so the retailer usually gets stuck with these. But the manufacturers can get stuck too, since a retailer can still return a shipping damage part to the manufacturer claiming it's an inherent defect, and the manufacturer cannot generally prove otherwise. Shipping damage on a certain percentage of parts is really unavoidable, and it is so difficult to figure out who did it, that it is rare for the insurers to get stuck with the bill, although they are the ones who really should be. The chances that a purchaser who returned a #3 part damaged it in transport and didn't get it detected by the retailer are small enough that it's not really of much account.

Granted, the scammers #3 and #4 cost everyone money, but good staff at the parts counter can catch on to this pretty quick, and in any event, ultimately the retailer always has the ability to refuse to accept a return, even one that is within their policy. I have been in a parts store and heard that happen over a battery before, the retailer refused to take it back even though it was within warranty, because their battery tester said it tested out good. The customer was pissed, as you might imagine, and was yelling.

And as for extra andling, that is baloney. Both the dealer parts counter and the auto part store are NOT busy every minute of the day, they have dead time. During this dead time they can work on their returns, they do not have to waste it on blabbing to each other about the latest basketball scores.

The problem, if you think about it, is that the dealer parts counters and the auto manufacturers have much less incentive to take returns back for the following reasons:

With #1 & #2, well the auto manufacturer bears the cost of the part, the dealer parts counter takes no loss on it, as it should be. However there is one difference - the dealer parts counter can't buy from anyone other than the manufacturer, so they don't care if a particular part keeps coming back over and over with the same problem. That is a big issue with me since it removes the incentive to improve parts, since the manufacturer knows they can blow out their crap stock even if they redesign the part, and still get paid for it.

With #3 and #4 well here's the problem. If it's a common part, then the dealer parts counter is going to be able to sell it again, so they don't lose. But if it's not common, perhaps it's something like a custom-bent breather hose, well only the manufacturer really has any chance of selling it to someone else, and they don't allow dealers to return these.

The aftermarket doesen't seem to have a problem with taking returns back unless it's a cut item, like a length of hose (which should be obvious) or with some retailers, electrical parts. Yet their prices are lower mostly than the dealer parts counter, which doesen't take returns.

So I really think your statement about returned parts driving up prices is incorrect for the aftermarket, but not for the dealer parts counter, for the simple reason that the manufacturers will not take parts back from the dealers unless it's warranty defect return.

To give you an example one time I ordered a motor mount bracket for a chrysler. The dealer required me to put money down in advance which I did. The part arrived and I went to get it but took the old bracket. When I got there I found the old bracket had a machined area that the new bracket did not have, the auto manufacturer had made a change but had not updated their computer. So I demanded, and got, my money back. (and had my old bracker welded by a local welder)

Well that is going to drive up prices at that dealer parts counter and do you know why? Because the dealer is now stuck with this $80 bracket. They are likely never going to sell it to anyone else because it is so specialized, it is a bracket that rarely breaks, and it the auto manufacturer isn't going to take it back because there is nothing wrong with it.

And who is to blame for returns driving up prices at the dealers? I'll tell you, it's the auto manufacturers.

To give you one more example, a number of years ago I owned an olds that had an intermittent starting problem. I knew the problem was in the ignition switch so I went to GM and bought an ignition switch for it before tearing into it, because it was my only car and it's kind of hard to drive to the parts store with the steering column torn apart. Well there were two different kinds of ignition switches for this, one was for the tilt column, the other was for non-tilt. The GM parts counter did not ask if I had tilt or not, and sold me the non-tilt switch. When I got into the column, I discovered that the link mechanism inside the column was cracked, not a broken switch. So I ended up having to take a bus back to the dealer, get the link (part of a kit, as a matter of fact since this was a common failure) come back, put it into the column. I then figured since I had the new switch I might as well install it even through the old one was good, just for reliabilities sake, that is when I found the difference in switches, when I took the old one out.

So I took the new switch back. it was -still- in the bag, which was a sealed bag. Never opened. The dealer refused to take it back since it was an electrical part. That was a $45 switch. I know perfectly well why they didn't want to take it back - because they knew that 90% of the cars out there were sold with tilt, and the ignition switches rarely fail. So they would probably have not been able to sell it. The manufacturer would have been able to - but they don't take them back.

One last thing I will point out, Nissan. Nissan's dealers parts counters are all linked together, and dealers can order parts from each other if Nissan does not have the part in their warehouse (obsoleted or some such) This at least helps the dealers from getting stuck with dead inventory. So at least one auto manufacturer is coming into the 20th century. But Nissan dealers are still using the same bullcrap return policieis.

interference

I don't know about other manufacturers, but Toyota does make production changes if a particular part experiences a high failure rate, whether sold over the counter, through the service department, or installed as original equipment. Auto manufacturers actually have a greater incentive to improve parts because they must pay the dealer his retail labor rate to repair or replace a defective part installed by the dealership.

Dealers are allowed to return up to 10% of their annual stock purchases to the manufacturer for credit, so if a dealer orders a muffler or bent radiator hose for a 1980 Corolla on a regular weekly stock order and it doesn't sell, it can be returned under the 10% program.

Dealers will not take returns on some parts unless they are defective, including special order parts because they do not count towards the 10% credit; electrical parts because of the difficulty in telling if it has been installed or not; and parts that have been installed on a vehicle (unless it is defective).

Dealers will take returns on parts that they normally stock.

Update on the Toyota Tercel:

Tapping noise was caused by a spark plug wire that fell off - boy I feel dumb - I remember though when pushing it down, not feeling the "click" of a positive connection, but I figured it wasn't a problem - it was. When reconnected the plug wire, tapping noise disappeared.

I "decarbonized" ie: flushed the engine with Seafoam.

As for the emissions reports, the HC is worse now, and the CO is still low. The engine does idle a smoother, however, and has more power on the highway at cruising speed.

My take on it and knowing the history is that the valve guide seals probably started leaking at the 80-90K mile mark, the engine has 140K on it now. I think that by now the catalyatic converter has had so much burned oil dumped down it that it is now shot. And the valve guide seals are probably leaking a lot worse now than they were when they started leaking, to the point that so much oil is going into the combustion chamber that it is kicking up the HC an excessive amount.

This last passed emissions 2 years ago and they only got it through by changing the plugs and dumping a bottle of alcohol into it. I suspect the converter was still barely functioning then.

The only hope is that whoever buys it doesen't notice the oil smoke, but I can't see how that would happen, this is losing so much oil now that if you turn the car off and let it sit for a minute, then start it, you would have to be blind not to see the smoke plume.

Ted