Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda

Excerpts from

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While the Toyota Prius sells in eight days, the Honda Accord hybrid takes some two months to exit the lot. The Honda Civic hybrid is no Prius either - it takes 36 days to move.

Clearly, the Prius's conspicuous display of uber-greenness is key to its success. But it also features a radically new driving experience. It's quite a thrill to hit the accelerator and slip along in near silence.

Not so for Honda hybrids. Because the gasoline engine is working most of the time - getting an electrical boost during acceleration - it drives much like a regular car. Honda says its technology is fuel efficient and cheaper, but that may not be enough to wow drivers.

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Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing.

...Robert Benchley

Reply to
Steve
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: Honda says its technology is fuel : efficient and cheaper, but that may not be enough to wow drivers.

Honda missed the point.

Their hybrid just too ugly - and the blame falls partly on that funky looking, fender-covered thing they tried to peddle (the Insight??).

Mack

Reply to
M. MacDonald

That may be true for the Insight, but the Civic and Accord Hybrids look just like regular Accords and Civics.

Persoanlly, I think the Toyota system is superior, although I remain unconvinced that I really care that much about hybrids in general. However, I think the size of the Prius, and the very positive press are major factors contributing to it sales sucess. Also the distinctive, if unual styling lets the world know that the driver really cares about the environment. The enviromentalist driving a Civic Hybrid might not get noticed....

Insight (CVT) - 57 City / 56 Hwy / 56 combined Insight (manual) - 60 City / 66 Hwy / 63 combined Civic Hybrid - 49 City / 51 Hwy / 50 combined Prius - 60 City / 51 Highway / 55 combined Accord Hybrid (2005) - 29 City / 37 Hwy / 32 combined Ford Escape (FWD) - 36 City / 31 Hwy / 33 combined Toyota Highlander Hybrid (FWD) - 33 City / 28 Hwy / 30 combined Toyota Camry (4 cylinder, 5 sp manual) - 24 City / 34 Hwy / 28 combined

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Perhaps they don't want to stand out as not being a very astute buyer who fell for the hybrid hype? ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I suppose the reason is the Civic buyer can get a better perspective on the premium price one must pay to buy a hybrid when looking at the came car with the different power plants. That premium will buy nearly ALL of the fuel for a conventional powered Civic. In the case of the Prius most buyers do not think to compare it to the Corolla for size, price, and fuel mileage. To say nothing of the fact dealers never mention the huge battery replacement cost somewhere down the line.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Thank you for the exerpts, Steve.

A reason why my wife & I opted for the Prius is that it is such a

*usable* car. The premium MSRP buys you an intelligently designed transportation system, not just an ordinary car with a modified propulsion package.

All the hybrids have been pared down in various weight-saving ways, but sometimes I have to wonder at the decisions. The hybrid Accord, e.g., has no spare tire. In its place you get a can of puncture-sealer to spray in through the valve stem. Fine if your tire picked up a nail, uselss if it hit road debris; fine if you're in a metropolitan area, infuriating if the nearest help is the gas station you passed a long time ago.

There are good ways to save weight. It's instructive to test a hybrid's body panels with a magnet.

Brent.

Reply to
Brent Secombe

The Accord hybrid is almost as bad of an idea as the 8 cylinder powered VW Passat was (not quite that bad though). Pushing an Accord into Acura TSX pricing levels really makes no sense.

Now Diesel powered Accords and Civics getting better than hybrid fuel economy in the real world and selling for no more that a $999 premium over the gasoline engine car ... that would be a great idea!

John

Reply to
John Horner

Reply to
Sapper

Supposedly the low-sulfer fuels will be rolled out in 2006 which should solve the emissions regulations problems for diesels. Even so, there are a whole lot of vehicles sold in the other 48 states!

John

Sapper wrote:

Reply to
John Horner

When we were shopping for a new car three years ago, we only looked at hybrids. There were four Prius on the lot, and no Civic hybrids to even test drive, so the choice was pretty much made at that point.

We couldn't be happier. The only repair we've done in those three years is replacement of a broken windshield. The transmissionless Prius is a joy to drive; my wife wouldn't have a manual (she knows how but doesn't like it). There is 50K miles left on the hybrid system warranty (including the battery... the hybrid system warranty is 10 yrs/150K miles in about half a dozen states but only 8 yr/100K in AZ). We average upper 40s mpg in real world driving, more around town where we do the most driving. It's clean, quiet, comfortable, responsive and superbly maneuverable. What's not to like?

On the diesel front, count me out. I just got a new work truck last month - a TDi F350 Super Duty. As a work vehicle there's a lot to like. It gets easily double the fuel economy of my previous gasser. On the highway, the power is phenomenal... at 25 psi boost I'm not surprised! Off the line is a whole different story. Making a left turn across traffic requires great patience and sometimes the kindness of strangers. I wish I had four feet: one for the accelerator, one for the clutch, and two more to do the Fred Flintstone thing. Add in the clatter and smell and it just isn't something I'd want in a family car.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

A modern automotive diesel powerplant, as about half the new cars sold in Europe use, is a much different story than the converted tractor motor Ford is using.

John

Reply to
John Horner

The International engine that Ford uses in its light trucks turns a lot faster then any either one of them us in their farm equipment. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Even so, it is at nothing approaching the sophistication level of the best modern European car diesels.

John

Reply to
John Horner

And why do you say that?

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Exactly what makes the European diesels so much better? And exactly which European diesels are the "best modern European car diesels?" And which of them come close to the power output of the PowerStroke diesel in a Ford Truck?

The closest European engine I could find was the VW V-10 TDi - 310 Horsepower / 553 ft-lb of torque vs the Powerstrokes 325 hp / 570 ft lb of torque.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

The PowerStroke diesel in an F350 was a ground up design for the application.

But actually the highway version of the inline 6 cylinder diesel like I have in one og my famr tractors was a really good medium truck engine.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Not wishing to interrupt anyone's p*ssing contest, it is quite possible that some people grade diesels not just by the output power but by general manners. I'm no kind of an engine expert; but I do recall being pleased with how (comparatively) quiet the diesel is (maybe "was" -- I don't follow the brand now) in newer Saabs: it starts and ticks over much like a petrol unit.

IOW, it's not only the size of the steak that pleases. :-)

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

So, since you are talking about a SAAB, which is owned by GM, an American comapny, is this a US or European Diesel?

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

You know, I've heard this comment about battery life and huge battery replacement cost before. So I'm curious, just how long is the life expectancy of a hybrid battery? Would that mean that the resale value of a used hybrid would drop faster with time than a similar model non-hybrid?

CD

Reply to
Cranky Dude

Couldn't tell you. Remember: "I'm no kind of an engine expert". Also remember: "I don't follow the brand now" -- my awareness of Saab's doings pretty much stops in late 2004. If you pressed me to guess, I would suppose European in design but by now American in ownership (unless Saab bought it from a non-GM source). Maybe someone else in this NG can say.

That wasn't the point I was addressing. There were posts which seemed to be fixated on engine power and manliness. I wanted to direct thoughts to other factors. No question, if it's mindless power you want, you have a fat choice of suppliers: USian, EUian, JPian -- probably Chinese too. Smoke-belching brute force is no trick at all. Subtlety usually is.

That's my 2p.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

It is a good question and one which I suspect the car makers know the answer to, but are keeping quiet about. The battery technology being used is a larger implemenation of the same rechargeable battery types already deployed in laptops, cordless power tools, digital cameras, cell phone and the like. I have had more laptop batteries totally fail to take a charge than I would care to think about. They typically work great at first, but months or years down the line need to be replaced at a high cost.

With cordless power tools (drills, etc.) it is often cheaper to buy a whole new one than it is to replace the power packs. Typically a couple of years of moderate use is all it takes for those battery packs to be worthless.

Lithium batteries, for example, are generally rated for 300-500 charge-discharge cycles before being useless. Typically as the number of cycles adds up, the capacity deteriorates.

See:

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Nicad batteries are generally considered usefull for around 700 carefully managed cycles.

See:

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I believe that the Prius and other presently available hybrids use Nicad for this longer cycle life, even though Lithium batteries offer a higher power density.

There are no 5-10 year old Nicad laden cars on the road right now, so only time will tell. My guess is that somewhere around 2009-2010 there are going to be a bunch of surprised and angry customers, many of them the second owners of these vehicles.

John

Reply to
John Horner

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