Manual transmission roughness

On 12/1/10 5:16 PM, Scribe wrote:

They make lots of money for the people who sell them. They don't help
the people who use them, however.

They are a waste of money.

Jeff

I supposefully synthetic gear oils are the ultimate then.  Not snake oil.

On 12/1/10 6:13 PM, Scribe wrote:

Of course, synthetic gear oil will not reverse damage.

Jeff

I assume it will reduce the wear rate.

"Slight," makes me wonder why you even consider it worth worrying about.
After 113,000 miles, it could be anything, and is probably nothing to worry
about. Why don't you drain and refill the transmission fluid? I'd just use
regular fluid and avoid the temptation for synthetics or for the Snake Oils.

And, your car doesn't have a driveshaft, per se. It has drive axles (one to
each front tire) that you have not successfully eliminated from the picture.
Each half-shaft has an inner and an outer CV Joint, giving you 4 CV joints.
Any one of them can give a vibration when they are loaded either in the
direction needed to propel the car forward, or in the direction they are
loaded when the car is slowing down. By downshifting, you are changing the
load and the harmonics at which the vibration occurs. If you turn the
steering to full lock and drive in a circle, then turn full lock and go the
opposite way, and hear any clicking or feel any vibration then you probably
have a CV joint on the way out. You can clean and re-lube the CV joints, but
most people just replace them.

The idea is to identify what it is and do something, if at all, to nip it in
the bud.  I can live with it. Most driving has been on motorways, so gear
changes are the equivalent of a car that has done half, or less, the 113,000
miles.


Fully synthetic is not snake oil.  Mobil 1 make a transmission oil, this is
supposed to not be influenced by temperature highs and lows that much.
Yesterday in -2C the gears were hard to change until the car had warmed up.
Fully synthetics are supposed work better at lower temperatures (not thick
like syrup).

Full synthetic is not snake oil, and I didn't mean to suggest that it was.
It is expensive though, and I don't think you will benefit from the added
cost. I'm not sure, but I think your car takes automatic transmission fluid
even though you have a manual transmission.

My point was that your best nip-it-in-the-bud approach right now is to
replace the fluid.

The oil is normal gear oil. I forget the viscosity.


I intend to do that.  I noticed this on wiki for what it is worth.  I do not
like wiki that much as some of the info is way out and at times childish and
childishly written.

"Fully synthetic gear oils are also used in many vehicles, and have a
greater resistance to shear breakdown than mineral oils. They can improve
the shifting performance of "difficult" gearboxes, where the excessive
slipperiness of some mineral oils can impede synchromesh action." It does
request a citation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil

So, it would be a good bet to change to a fully synthetic oil for better
shifting, according to wiki.

Back to snake oils.  This Slick 50 has been around for about 25 years and
still sells well all over the world. Many people swear by it.  I thought
maybe there must be something there. I know they were taken to court for
exaggerated claims.

About after market additives. Fuel additives do work.  I put a small bottle
of Red X into my tank before each annual inspection.  It always passes. Also
the idling becomes smoother.   A friend who does annual inspections say they
recommend people to put Wurth, Red X, etc, in as they do improve emissions
and get a car through the test.  They will put Wurth to failed cars and tell
the owner to drive around for a day and come back in two days time.  It
always works.

Stage coach tested an after market additive in half their vehicles and
checked them against the other half . There was great improvement.  They put
the additive in all their vehicles now:
http://www.stagecoachgroup.com/scg/media/press/pr2010/2010-01-26/

This begs the question. Why isn't it in all fuel?  And this also trashed the
well known responses,
"if it was good enough the car makers would do it?"
"if it was good enough the oil companies would put it in the fuel?"
"if it was good enough the car makers would recommend it?"

A old neighbour of mine is a an auto design engineer. I recall he said in
older engines "moly" based additives do make a difference "and " reduce fuel
consumption a little.

It appears that some say they work and others say "snake oil".

I was wondering if anyone had used an after market gearbox product and what
the "honest" results were.  If one had decent feedback then it might be
worth a try. Otherwise I an using a fully synthetic gear oil.  These oils
also last far longer than mineral oils.

On 12/4/10 4:00 AM, Scribe wrote:

I wouldn't take advice from a source that anyone (even I) can edit for a
device that costs $1000s of dollar to fix or replace without checking
the references and doing a search of my own.


Many people swear by distilled water as a cure even there is no evidence
at all that it works and the conjecture on which it is claimed to work
makes no scientific sense at all.
(<http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html> )


Read the real info about ENVIROX™, the aftermarket product they are
using. It is specifically designed for diesel engiens and has a catalyst
in it. That is different than using any old fuel additive (Wurth, Red X,
Bullshit, Made up claims, etc.).

http://www.oxonica.com/energy/energy_envirox_intro.php


How would you know without knowing what's in the particular product and
without a real test of the product? Not just some backyard mechanic who
"swears by it."

Yeah, right.  On borderline fails they have not had one not pass on re-test
using Wurth.  Yeah, right.


The point is that additives DO WORK. Not all are snake oil. ENVIROXT madea
differnce in real world testing of a fleet.  So why isn't it in all diesel
fuel?  The testing friend of mine swears by Wurth. He told me to put it in
my car (the fuel injection cleaner). I put in Red X and it passed.  I DO
notice the idling becomes more steady, and "slight" increase in power on
take-off.


If enough feedback say putting this XXX product in the gearbox will smooth
out the changing and overall running then I may give it the benefit of the
doubt.

I prefer taking notice to those who have used a product and their finding,
not a 100% sceptic, who has been proven wrong that additives do not work.
Stagecoach proved they do.

New cars might get synthetic gear oil (transmission oil and/or differential
oil) but I doubt your Avenis can be counted among these models. I would not
bother with synthetic oil in a transmission that's already 115,000 miles
old, and ten years. Your car is a very low performance vehicle -- it is an
econobox not a sports car.

I see no benefit to synthetic oil for you.

If you had a Turbo Supra or some other performance machine such as that,
then by all means dump the dino oil and put in a load of synthetic.

It was an option on the first service by the dealer.  Mobil 1 transmission
oil.  The recommended engine oil is semi-synthetic.


It does 115mph. I fail to see that marketing segment (sports) matters.


The engine has had fully synthetic from the first service.  The gearbox was
mixed, as to what the dealer had. Sometimes fully synthetic gear oil.  The
extra cost is not great at all.

You are sold on synthetic AND your mechanic wants to give you the upgrade to
synthetic at no cost or a minimal cost. Do it.

I don't see the advantage, but if I could get synthetic transmission fluid
for free as compared to dino oil for the same job, I'd do it. There is
nothing wrong with synthetic oils anywhere, the question is, is the extra
cost worth the small added benefit? YOU think the answer to the questin is ,
yes. So go for it.

I don't think you're having anything wrong with the transmission that I can
help you with except to say, change the fluid. I would not use synthetic
because I perceive that it costs more and there is no benefit.

I saw that Ray suggests you can be noticing the affects of worn transmission
and/or motor mounts. That's certainly a possibility, and one that is frankly
pretty high on the list. If this is the problem, there is no fluid that will
fix it.

I am not sure of the full benefits of fully synthetic oils over mineral oils
in gearboxes. They do last longer and are difficult to break down, so I
would say the befits are greater than what most think.  I know of cab
drivers who do high mileages, and can't always get a service on time maybe
overrunning the service interval by many 1000s of miles, use fully synthetic
oils in engine and g/box as an assurance against service overruns.

About 15-20 years ago I did some work in an oil research lab. The
Tribologists
said "only ever use fully synthetic oils", as the lubrication is vastly
superior in every way.  Most people thought it was only for "sports" cars,
they said use it in all engines.  One would take a sample of oil from his
car and test it before any changing of oil.  He went 60,000 miles on Mobil 1
changing the filter every 6,000 and topping up a little, and it still did
not need changing.  I have used it ever since. One also said it is best to
use from new the likes of Mobil 1, newer products are on the market now, and
use an oil filter with finer filtration.  He said the engine will then just
last and last.  I have not taken up the filter advice, Maybe I should have,
but their views have proven correct with me.  113,000 miles and not once
topping up the oil level.

My car from new came from the factory with semi-synthetic, the  over to
Mobil 1 at 500 miles. It has not faltered or used one drop of oil. The
engine still sounds and feels like new when cruising.  The superior
lubrication qualities of synthetics are pretty well known. There is only one
choice.  Once an engine is worn, and oil consumption starts, then
semi-synthetic oil like Castrol Magnatec was recommended.

The gear fluid does need changing and I am 99% set on a fully synthetic
despite the extra cost - which is not great.  Because the gearbox is worn it
does not mean I have make it wear any quicker.  I was just unsure if there
are any after market gear additives that benefit worn g/boxes.

I will check the mounts, maybe when the Spring comes, as it is below
freezing most of the time here now.

First, make sure that you have the correct transmission fluid - most newer
Toyotas use ATF in manual gearboxes and using gear oil will cause difficult
shifting.

Check your transmission mounts and engine mounts, particularly the ones
nearest the firewall as broken or worn mounts can cause the symptom you are
describing.  I can't think of anything internal in the transmission that
would likely cause a vibration only on deceleration.

Stay away from additives as most cause more harm than good.  Additives can
change the way the synchros bite the cones, causing rough shifting,
particularly downshifting.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

On 12/5/2010 1:14 AM, Ray O wrote:

I was thinking of using

Synthetic Manual Transmission and Transaxle
Gear Lube 75W-90 API GL-4 (MTG)


http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtg.aspx


on my first manual transmission fluid change just due on my 07 Corolla.  
I called the dealership and they said that synthetic oil is rarely used
in manual transmissions.  They didn't discourage the idea, but they
didn't feel is was really necessary.  I wanted to get easier shifting in
the cold weather.  Any advise?

That is what I want. Dealership advise?  Mmmmmmm. They tend to just quote
out of the manuals in my experience.

On 12/6/2010 6:35 AM, Scribe wrote:

After a lot of hunting, I finally found a transmission shop in town who
sells this Amsoil product and keeps it in stock regularly.  Paid $15.10
plus taxes per quart.  I expect to have it installed in the new year
when my ECM recall gets done.  I'll try to post the results in a few
months time.

Using gear oil in a manual transmission designed to use ATF will cause harsh
shifting so double check your owner's manual to see what type of lubricant
is specified for your transmission.   ATF is less viscous than gear oil so
it is easier to shift when the fluid is cold.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)