New initiate to OIL CHANGE CLUB

I've been thinking about trying the ASL because it's a PAO oil (API Group IV). Since the XLF is a Group III and I already have Group III in the car (Pennzoil Platinum), I may just opt for the ASL in 6 months. Anybody tried any of these oils in their cars? What do you think of them?

Although Group III is considered synthetic in the U.S., the European Union doesn't considered Group III oils to be synthetics, according to Wiki's entry for "synthetic oil," some of which is reproduced below:

Synthetic Base Stocks

Synthetic motor oils have been made from the following classes of lubricants:

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) = American Petroleum Institute (API) Group IV base oil

Synthetic esters, etc = API Group V base oils (non-PAO synthetics, including diesters, polyolesters, alklylated napthlenes, alkyklated benzenes, etc.)

Hydrocracked/Hydroisomerized = API Group III base oils. Chevron, Shell, and other petrochemical companies developed processes involving catalytic conversion of feed stocks under pressure in the presence of hydrogen into high quality mineral lubricating oil. In 2005 production of GTL (Gas-to-liquid) Group III base stocks began. The best of these perform much like polyalphaolefin [citation needed]. Group III base stocks are considered synthetic motor oil in North America[1], but not in the European Union.

Yes, this is true. But of course there's no real difference in terms of performance between the two, especially operated in a non-high-performance engine.

Of course there's no advantage to synthetic at all in non-high-performance engines where the oil is changed every 5K miles, but that's for another thread.

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SMS, I have to disagree. The advantages of using synthetic motor oils, even in regular cars like the Camry, are many. Using synthetic oil over petroleum oil will likely improve mileage, improve starting in sub-zero temperatures, possibly quiet engine sound and improve engine performance, etc., etc.

You might like to read the following article by a Florida surgeon named A. E. Haas who is a car and oil enthusiast . By the way I think he's an American of Arab descent, and a swell guy, too. I've always enjoyed interacting with the few Arabs I have known in Missouri. They're really quite nice folks. I think you might enjoy Mister Haas' article on oil viscosity and synthetics at the link below. I was quite impressed with his article :-)

Nice folks are always appreciated in America, and around the world:

$

Yes, for sub-zero operation it'll help. As to the other items, no, there's no evidence at all that performance will improve or that MPG will be better, or that the engine sound will change.

Even Mobil doesn't claim any mileage improvement for their synthetic oil. No synthetic oil manufacturer has ever shown an MPG improvement in real double-blind, controlled tests. They'd be going crazy with advertising claims on MPG if they ever were able to show a modest improvement. It's rather amusing to look at all the various Amsoil dealer web sites and see the MPG claims, as well as claims by users of synthetics. They're all over the place, 0%, 2%, 5%, 7%, 7.86%, 8%, 8.2%,

9%, you choose, as none of them were a controlled test. Mobil's web site is even more ridiculous, stating that MPG increases with synthetics are also dependent on stuff like proper tire inflation, not bothering to explain that regardless of the oil used, proper tire inflation helps with mileage.

$ Well he's from UF, so he must be extremely smart, like all Gators. And yes, for Ferraris, synthetic oil probably is required.

Also, most of the cabs used in the study where large American cars like the Ford Crown Vic and Chevy Caprice. These cars (and engines) were very old designs from long before 1996, and the engine tolerances (even when new) are so loose that measuring engine wear is difficult.

Considered how long Built_Well spent talking and posting about it before he actually did it (at least 6 months and hundreds of posts), I am sure that it was a climax for him after talking about it for so long.

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Is there something unusual about waiting 6 months between oil changes?

I recommend everyone read Doctor Ali Haas' article on viscosity and synthetics. I was very impressed with Mister Haas.

Seeing that engine tolerances are measured down to .001 or .0001 inch it would be very easy to spot any wear in an engine. Why do you believe it would be different on an engine manufactured before 1996 ?

Built Well, keep in mind that changing oil and choosing an oil for your car is not rocket science. I've been doing oil changes since I was 14 years old, and the methodology has not changed in the 38 years since then. Rather than focusing on the chemical qualities of the oil and over-analyzing which oil is going to give you the best gas mileage, you should focus on A) using oil that meets API quality SM and B) change the oil in a timely manner.

Follow those 2 recommendations from the folks who made your car and the engine and catalytic should last a long time.

A factory replacement catalytic converter costs well over a thousand dollars, so any so-called savings from using non API specified oil will be gone.

There are plenty of other tricks that will improve fuel economy a lot more than what some supposed super-oil will get. For example, empty all unnecessary junk from the car and trunk, keep your tires inflated to 5 PSI over the recommendation on the door plate, avoid warming up the car more than 20 seconds, avoid unnecessary idling, and allow the transmission to upshift as quickly as possible. Those tricks cost nothing (my kind of price), and with them, I get a pretty consistent 18.6 MPG around town in my car with a 4.3 liter V8 engine and 25~25 on the highway in "spirited" driving.

The vague and IMO misleading verbiage in Amsoil's web site makes me distrust the company and their products and makes me think that they have something to hide. Rather than using the standard disclaimers and small print that most companies use, Amsoil seems to use vague wording in order to avoid being accused of being misleading. Their products may or may not be great, but the feeling that they are hiding something makes me uneasy, and rather than waste time trying to read between their lines, I just stick to a name brand oil from a company that says it like it is.

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Ray O, those are all very good points you made, and would you believe, I actually knew some of them. To maximize mileage, I always keep as little in the car as possible, inflate tires midway between the door sill figure (29 psi) and the sidewall figure (44 psi). Got 38 psi in them right now. Drove

100 miles in the pouring rain between St. Louis and Columbia without a problem at 38 psi. I don't accelerate fast, and on the highway, I keep the windows closed to improve mileage.

I'm not a seasoned, experienced Expert like you by any means at all. You're a true expert with vast automotive knowledge, and I'm simply a novice. But if I ruin my car, we're just talking about a Camry here, not an expensive Lexus or a Sequoia like you have. So I'm seriously considering using at the next oil change 0w-30 since it will be better for the car at cold startup than 5w-30. You know, less engine wear. That '08 Camry Solara we talked about a few months ago that was on display at Sam's Club, had both 5w-20 and 0w-20 on its oil filler cap, and the engine is the same 2AZ as my '06 Camry, but I'll stick with the 30-weight oil recommended in my manual--won't fiddle with 20-weight. I'll just switch up from 5w- to

0w :-)

Remember the '06 Hyundai? Its manual showed both 5w-20 and

5w-30, two different weights of oil.

I learned today that the amount of ZDDP in the Amsoil 0w-30 is .08 percent, which is the same amount of ZDDP as in other oils that are API SM certified, so the catalytic converter shouldn't be harmed.

If anything goes wrong though, I never transmitted this message ;-)

But seriously, there's still a whole 6 months before the next oil change, and I may just chicken out of my grand plans :-)

....Umm, meant to say '06 Hyundai Sonata.

?????

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Calab, the '06 Hyundai Sonata's manual listed both 5w-20 and 5w-30 , two different weights of oil.

If you are saying that an engine for a current American car is the same piece of crap it was 25 years ago, then I am no position to dispute that. However, when comparing a Crown Vic engine with one from Toyota, you are comparing apples and oranges.

I like KISS solutions like the ones you're using. They work, they don't cost anything, and they're easy to implement.

I may be "seasoned" and "experienced" but the automotive engineers I used to work with and learned from are the real experts. Many of the automotive engineers I used to work with had project cars, and they all used the products that they thought were the best available in those cars. None used Amsoil - they haven't led me wrong yet, so I'll stick to the tried and true since I really don't want to pay to replace the engines in any of my cars, even the cheaper than a Camry Escort.

I never understand why people are so determined to defend and use products from a company that seems to be so deliberately elusive about whether their product conforms to the standards that every other company uses.

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Ray O, I think the reason so many people defend Amsoil is because used oil analyis doesn't lie.

Boutique oils from companies like Amsoil and RLI consistently turn in better engine wear numbers than the big boys like ExxonMobil. In fact, Group V oils like RLI's may be the future.

Respected tribologist Terry Dyson currently recommends RLI, and he does a whole lot of testing.

So by your statement above, I hope you're not suggesting that Amsoil is alone on a limb by selling non-API-certified oils.

Again, RLI's oils are not API-certified either. And big boy Shell recently came out with a non-API-certified oil, too. ....Shell, one of the world's biggest oil companies...

By the way, Dyson Analysis also likes Pennzoil Platinum, right now, too. So it doesn't matter to oil expert Dyson whether he's looking at oils from huge giants or small companies. He picks the best, whether they're API-certified or not.

Of course, whether someone should buy a particular oil like Amsoil or RLI depends on a buyer's car's needs.

Walmart, seller of Mobil, Pennzoil, Havoline, Castrol, etc. went to Amsoil several years back, wanting to carry Amsoil on its shelves too. Amsoil was happy to provide Walmart with a private-label brand, but Walmart wanted the Amsoil brand. As a result, Amsoil turned Walmart down, worried that Walmart would hurt Amsoil's many dealers across the country.

I wish Amsoil had said yes to Walmart, because I'm sure the oil would be a lot cheaper there! [chuckle]

If you are only concerned with how well oil lubricates, then choose based on what the "boutique" oil companies and oil experts recommend. If you are also concerned with making sure that your car's emissions system works properly over the long term and doesn't become compromised, then my recommendation is that you follow the advice of the folks who designed and made your car and stick to oil that meets API specifications.

Ray, your talking to someone who's mind is already made up. He can't listen to facts, he might have to admit he's wrong! He won't thank you for giving him the facts, all he will do is attack and belittle you.

Jack

Store brand oils have usually been the same as Valvoline or Quaker State, except for Wal-mart's, so what makes them "low-end", other than price? And what makes Amsoil "high-end", other than price? CR included Mobil 1 synthetic, and I've never heard of it being considered anything but high-end.