OT: Immigration. Let's use some head cheese on this problem.

  1. Building a big fence isn't going to stop illegal immigration, any more than the Berlin Wall stopped people from fleeing to the West. As long as there is opportunity and money on OUR side of the border, and much less opportunity on THEIR side of the border, they're going to come, just like they found ways over, under, and through the Berlin Wall.

  1. Enforcing the law is going to be spotty at best and won't solve the problem.

  2. Enacting still more laws isn't going to fix the problem if we aren't enforcing existing laws now.

  1. We had a program that worked prior to Lyndon Johnson, it was called the Bracero program. People from Mexico could come up, work during the agricultural season and go home. LBJ basically said, if they went home, they couldn't come back. This was the beginning of our 'illegal immegration' problem. Just as stupid as putting up the Berlin Wall.

Now, in light of history both here and in Eastern Germany, what solution do you think will actually fix the problem? You can't obviously punish every employer that hires 'illegal immegrants' We'd need a Federal Pennitentiary the size of New York State. We need to understand that for the same reasons our ancestors came here, so do they, for the most part. As long as Mexico refuses to work with us to provide more opportunity on their side of the border so their citizens see at least as much opportunity on their side as ours, the border could be solid concrete a mile thick and 100 miles high and it wouldn't fix the problem.

Why don't we raise the quota? Why is it so artificially low in the first place? Just because we don't want no dirty unwashed Mexicans up here? (Shades of Jim Crow.) Whether or not we allow 10 millions to immigrate, they will come anyway as long as there are better opportunities for them here than the pocket lint earnings they can make in a large part of Mexico. Keeping the quota down is about as useful as bailing the Titanic with a teaspoon.

Many of them want to do as our forefathers have done, grab a chunk of the American Dream. Most of our ancestors eventually got a chance to walk proudly. Tis true, it took a lot longer in some cases that it should have, and we still haven't quite got to Martin Luther King's dream of basing our judgement of others on the content of their character instead of the color of their skin.

We should move toward making them legal in some way that rewards them for legally entering the United States and working through the system. Learning to speak English and become a part of the mainstream. Today I know a lot of legal immigrants that are doing and have done just that. We need to think this out, instead of punishing people because more of them are here than we would necessarily like.

We also tend to forget a lot of our ancestors prior to Ellis Island basically just got here. There were no quotas and until after the Civil War, few restrictions. My French Canadian ancestors just crossed the St Claire River. They had no 'papers' and nobody probably even cared that they crossed. Many of them lived quiet lives in their little villages among others of their kind, farmed their lands and lived their lives pretty much as they had done in the old country. I am not even sure if my great-great-grandfather, despite living here 47 years, ever actually forswore his Canadian citizenship and acutally became an American. Where they lived was the important thing.

And that dirty, unwashed thing. Seems to me I remember hearing about various other groups over the centuries being 'dirty' and 'unwashed'. I seem to remember in my childhood hearing some still talking about Italians and Poles that way down in my old neighborhood. I have my sneaking suspicions there was a time the Irish and the Germans were also considered nasty old foreigners.

We've been trying to 'patch' this problem since Reagan. We need to sit back, have a real discussion, and come up with a workable solution, not just a bunch of buzzwords from the Left or the Right.

Right now, people are profiting from the misery of 'illegal' immegrants that can't take better jobs or improve themselves. They're basically trapped. If they were 'legal', they could work up the job chain like we did. They would have an incentive to learn Engli$h. and improve their lot much as the legal immigrants do. I suspect it would also have effects on certain types of crime.

We can't grant them all mass amnesty. We've already tried that, and the problem just keeps growing. We need to look at this picture in an entirely new way. Tell the politicians to keep their buzzwords out. Lets decide what will really work, because what we've got now ISN'T working, nor are any of the various proposals on the table. Most of them make about as much sense as trying to piss upstream against Niagra Falls.

What really saddens me is that 100 years after Theodore Roosevelt, many of the Central and South American countries are still pretty badly off compared to the US and Canada. I suspect if there were better opportunities south of the Border, 'illegal' immigration would be much less of an issue. But then again, untill WW2, outside of the large cities, the South was probably closer to a third-world country here. I've seen some of the places and heard some of the stories.

Charles the Curmudgeon.

Reply to
n5hsr
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In message news:c4udnatiStDFlsPanZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com, n5hsr sprach forth the following:

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How Eisenhower solved illegal border crossings from Mexico By John Dillin

WASHINGTON ? George W. Bush isn't the first Republican president to face a full-blown immigration crisis on the US-Mexican border.

Fifty-three years ago, when newly elected Dwight Eisenhower moved into the White House, America's southern frontier was as porous as a spaghetti sieve. As many as 3 million illegal migrants had walked and waded northward over a period of several years for jobs in California, Arizona, Texas, and points beyond.

President Eisenhower cut off this illegal traffic. He did it quickly and decisively with only 1,075 United States Border Patrol agents - less than one-tenth of today's force. The operation is still highly praised among veterans of the Border Patrol.

Although there is little to no record of this operation in Ike's official papers, one piece of historic evidence indicates how he felt. In 1951, Ike wrote a letter to Sen. William Fulbright (D) of Arkansas. The senator had just proposed that a special commission be created by Congress to examine unethical conduct by government officials who accepted gifts and favors in exchange for special treatment of private individuals.

General Eisenhower, who was gearing up for his run for the presidency, said "Amen" to Senator Fulbright's proposal. He then quoted a report in The New York Times, highlighting one paragraph that said: "The rise in illegal border-crossing by Mexican 'wetbacks' to a current rate of more than

1,000,000 cases a year has been accompanied by a curious relaxation in ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government."

Years later, the late Herbert Brownell Jr., Eisenhower's first attorney general, said in an interview with this writer that the president had a sense of urgency about illegal immigration when he took office.

America "was faced with a breakdown in law enforcement on a very large scale," Mr. Brownell said. "When I say large scale, I mean hundreds of thousands were coming in from Mexico [every year] without restraint."

Although an on-and-off guest-worker program for Mexicans was operating at the time, farmers and ranchers in the Southwest had become dependent on an additional low-cost, docile, illegal labor force of up to 3 million, mostly Mexican, laborers.

According to the Handbook of Texas Online, published by the University of Texas at Austin and the Texas State Historical Association, this illegal workforce had a severe impact on the wages of ordinary working Americans. The Handbook Online reports that a study by the President's Commission on Migratory Labor in Texas in 1950 found that cotton growers in the Rio Grande Valley, where most illegal aliens in Texas worked, paid wages that were "approximately half" the farm wages paid elsewhere in the state.

Profits from illegal labor led to the kind of corruption that apparently worried Eisenhower. Joseph White, a retired 21-year veteran of the Border Patrol, says that in the early 1950s, some senior US officials overseeing immigration enforcement "had friends among the ranchers," and agents "did not dare" arrest their illegal workers.

Walt Edwards, who joined the Border Patrol in 1951, tells a similar story. He says: "When we caught illegal aliens on farms and ranches, the farmer or rancher would often call and complain [to officials in El Paso]. And depending on how politically connected they were, there would be political intervention. That is how we got into this mess we are in now."

Bill Chambers, who worked for a combined 33 years for the Border Patrol and the then-called US Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), says politically powerful people are still fueling the flow of illegals.

During the 1950s, however, this "Good Old Boy" system changed under Eisenhower - if only for about 10 years.

In 1954, Ike appointed retired Gen. Joseph "Jumpin' Joe" Swing, a former West Point classmate and veteran of the 101st Airborne, as the new INS commissioner.

Influential politicians, including Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson (D) of Texas and Sen. Pat McCarran (D) of Nevada, favored open borders, and were dead set against strong border enforcement, Brownell said. But General Swing's close connections to the president shielded him - and the Border Patrol - from meddling by powerful political and corporate interests.

One of Swing's first decisive acts was to transfer certain entrenched immigration officials out of the border area to other regions of the country where their political connections with people such as Senator Johnson would have no effect.

Then on June 17, 1954, what was called "Operation Wetback" began. Because political resistance was lower in California and Arizona, the roundup of aliens began there. Some 750 agents swept northward through agricultural areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over

50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Another 488,000, fearing arrest, had fled the country.

By mid-July, the crackdown extended northward into Utah, Nevada, and Idaho, and eastward to Texas.

By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and an estimated

500,000 to 700,000 illegals had left the Lone Star State voluntarily.

Unlike today, Mexicans caught in the roundup were not simply released at the border, where they could easily reenter the US. To discourage their return, Swing arranged for buses and trains to take many aliens deep within Mexico before being set free.

Tens of thousands more were put aboard two hired ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried the aliens from Port Isabel, Texas, to Vera Cruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles south.

The sea voyage was "a rough trip, and they did not like it," says Don Coppock, who worked his way up from Border Patrolman in 1941 to eventually head the Border Patrol from 1960 to 1973.

Mr. Coppock says he "cannot understand why [President] Bush let [today's] problem get away from him as it has. I guess it was his compassionate conservatism, and trying to please [Mexican President] Vincente Fox."

There are now said to be 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens in the US. Of the Mexicans who live here, an estimated 85 percent are here illegally. Border Patrol vets offer tips on curbing illegal immigration

One day in 1954, Border Patrol agent Walt Edwards picked up a newspaper in Big Spring, Texas, and saw some startling news. The government was launching an all-out drive to oust illegal aliens from the United States.

The orders came straight from the top, where the new president, Dwight Eisenhower, had put a former West Point classmate, Gen. Joseph Swing, in charge of immigration enforcement.

General Swing's fast-moving campaign soon secured America's borders - an accomplishment no other president has since equaled. Illegal migration had dropped 95 percent by the late 1950s.

Several retired Border Patrol agents who took part in the 1950s effort, including Mr. Edwards, say much of what Swing did could be repeated today.

"Some say we cannot send 12 million illegals now in the United States back where they came from. Of course we can!" Edwards says.

Donald Coppock, who headed the Patrol from 1960 to 1973, says that if Swing and Ike were still running immigration enforcement, "they'd be on top of this in a minute."

William Chambers, another '50s veteran, agrees. "They could do a pretty good job" sealing the border.

Edwards says: "When we start enforcing the law, these various businesses are, on their own, going to replace their [illegal] workforce with a legal workforce."

While Congress debates building a fence on the border, these veterans say other actions should have higher priority.

  1. End the current practice of taking captured Mexican aliens to the border and releasing them. Instead, deport them deep into Mexico, where return to the US would be more costly.
  2. Crack down hard on employers who hire illegals. Without jobs, the aliens won't come.
  3. End "catch and release" for non-Mexican aliens. It is common for illegal migrants not from Mexico to be set free after their arrest if they promise to appear later before a judge. Few show up.

The Patrol veterans say enforcement could also be aided by a legalized guest- worker program that permits Mexicans to register in their country for temporary jobs in the US. Eisenhower's team ran such a program. It permitted up to 400,000 Mexicans a year to enter the US for various agriculture jobs that lasted for 12 to 52 weeks.

? John Dillin is former managing editor of the Monitor.

Reply to
Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute

Something I heard on the BBC a couple months ago that *REALLY* pissed me off: There was a protest in Mexico City about the way *ILLEGALS* are treated in the US. !WHAT!?!?!? Go to Mexico as an 'illegal' and see how YOU are treated!!! (NOTE: Their jails suck, I have heard. You sure as HELL won't be getting Welfare, Medicare, a Driver's License, etc. etc...)

A Mexican 'folk singer' said: "We are ALL citizens of North America, and you CANNOT put up a wall to keep us out."

Huh? what does being a "citizen of North America" have to do with it? You think because you live on the continent you can come and go as you desire, and just take up residence whereever you want?

Like I said: go to Mexico and expect good treatment...

Reply to
Hachiroku

Illegal immigrants just enter the US as use it as a rest area. They want to live in Canada.

Reply to
EdV

Is this the new sales pitch for the NAFTA Super Highway?

Reply to
F.H.

No, just the same-sex married ones want to live in Canada, with their lumberjack girlie friends since you guys have legalized same-sex marriage. And since Massachussetts has done so, we probably should sell you most of New England, too. But then you'd have to lower the tax rates in Taxachusetts to match yours.

Charles the Curmudgeon

Reply to
n5hsr

Nice, I haven't thought of that. US should assist illegal immigrants to get legalized in Canada. (or help them illegally enter Canada). They will have more job opportunities in Canada. Greener pastures. Illegal immigrants are found in all 50 states, its just a hop, skip and a jump away from the Canadian border. Again what is Canada doing right that US cant do?

Reply to
EdV

Brokeback Mountain was filmed in Calgary, Alberta

Reply to
EdV

Yeah, but Canada has its own built in problem group. We have the 'Reconquista' here in the US, you guys have the Quebecqois. If the Hispanics moved up there, you'd have to put three languages on your money, not just two. And you'd have to teach them about Loonies and Toonies, they're not used to handling coins worth over 25 cents and you may have to exchange Pesos as well as US Dollars at the border towns. . .

Technically I'm decended from the Quebecqois on my father's side, but we left Canada in 1852 for Illinois after they divided the St Lawrence property so much it was so thin, one could only grow spaghetti. . .

Charles the Curmudgeon

Reply to
n5hsr

Illegal immigrants are very adaptive and brave. Just imagine how much they have to put up to when hiking across the borders, extreme heat and cold depending on the time of the year. Learning money would not be that hard. They don't carry a lot of money when they hike, they get the money here in the US when they work.

Once those guys are here in the US crossing to Canada is breeze. Again going back to the original presumptions, they go to the US because of opportunity, but there are more opportunities in Canada. Travel to Canada is not hard once your already in the US. Does Canada have walls? The only thing I see is that Canadian employers dont hire illegal immigrants *as much* as Americans do, maybe rules are being followed, unlike here that we have rules but there's always a loophole. My point is other countries enforce laws thats why they dont have *that much* illegal/undocumented workers.

I dont know about you guys but I can't remember the last time when US had a crackdown on illegal immigrants. What's the Patriot Act doing? If the US is really serious in tracking down illegals, the size of the federal prison will not matter =)

Reply to
EdV

"EdV" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@e67g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

The BIG problem is that the Dimocraps don't want the laws enforced. They have been trying to do two things in the last two Presidential election cycles.

  1. Disenfranchise the soldiers, who seem to be overwhelmingly Republican.
  2. Enfranchise felons, illegal aliens and others who vote mostly for the Dimocraps. With help from the Clinton 1993 Motor Voter (Fraud) law. 10-12 million more votes for them would make them very happy. They're the ones that created the 'illegal alien' problem in the first place

Since basically 1972, the Dimocrap party has been in the hands of the far Left. The only things they're going to enforce are the laws that help them. Stopping illegal immigration doesn't help them, and any time someone tries to stop it, they put up such a hue and cry, you'd think Juan and another Juan were absolutely vital to the American economy. We've let the problem grow to a proportion, that now there's no realistic fixing it. 12 millions is something like 4 percent of our population. Let's see 4 percent of 31 millions is about 1.2 million. What do you think Dudley Do-Right would do if over a period of 20 years 1.2 million illegal Gitane-smoking Frenchmen swarmed over your border and hid in Quebec? Because that's basically what the Hispanics are doing here. They're hiding among the legitimate Hispanics, born here and legally immigrated. We took over 5 states that in 1848 were majority Mexican: Californication, Lost Wages, Aridzona, New Mexicoke and Texass. And once legally in the US, the legal Hispanics could pretty much go to a lot of places. They used to only be in states in the Southwest and near the Southwest. We used to see a lot in Arkansas picking crops, for instance. Now there's tons in areas like Chicago and the suburbs. We've let the problem grow to such a size that any attempt to deal with it is going to have to be Draconian. Even now, when the Migras start cracking down, there's a hue and cry comes up from the Dimocraps.

Once they get across the border here, they become infinitely harder to identify. And as long as there is money to be made up here, they're going to cross the border. Legally or not. Just merely enforcing the existing laws, which the Dimocraps don't want to do and the Republicants don't have the heart to do has become virtually impossible. Frankly most of the current politicians ought to be turned out and disqualified from future office.

The problem stems from the way we've handled this since LBJ. Basically the stupid thing LBJ did was to say if they went back to Mexico, they couldn't come back here. That's about as stupid as saying if I'm an American and I go home to America after visiting Canada, that I can never go back to Canada. So what happened after 1965, is they crossed the border and STAYED because the money was up here. We need to adjust what we're doing because we've let the problem get so bad that basically applying the existing laws is going to have about the same effect as bailing the Titanic with a thimble.

Also one other thing you probably don't realize. The US is probably working WITH your guys to identify these people. Mexico is actually helping them to get across our border! Mexico doesn't want them, either and is basically dumping them on us. Imagine how much less effective your program would be if the US started pushing people with French sounding last names across the Canadian border because we didn't want them. There are quite a few of us in Northern Illinois and New England. The one big difference is you'd be able to spot us immediately. We can't say OOT and ABOOT very well, and most of us are not native French speakers anymore. And almost none of us smoke Gitanes, though my brother did used to smoke Players.

Charles the Curmudgeon

Reply to
n5hsr

Exactly my point earlier, US is not serious in cracking down illegal immigrants.

Having illegal aliens is one thing, letting them vote is a big slap on the face.

It can be done, anybody can report to the homeland security suspected illegal immigrants, if I'm not mistaken there are rewards for this. There will be a paper trail somewhere in catching illegals, drivers license, school records, etc. Yes there is money here, but they can make more money somewhere else, but choose the US because they know its not going to be easy in a different country. Those illegals are laughing at our faces.

US can do it one at a time. Its not a life and death situation. Bush can make a nationwide TV warning and tell them "we are going to smoke you out from your hole" kinda thing. US can't find an illegal? do we expect to find a OBL in another country?

Reply to
EdV

Like I said, the arses don't WANT to find them. They ought to put that sheriff in Arizona in charge of the border, the one that makes his prisoners live in tents and wear pink underwear and feeds them baloney sandwiches. Once they get over the border, they 'blend in' way too well. You've got to get them to show their papers to smoke them out, and there are a lot of fake paper merchants up here helping them cover themselves.

Part of the problem goes WAY back to the 1920's and Prohibition. Americans learned to laugh at laws and law enforcement for the most part, and they have little respect for a lot of it. The average American seems to see nothing wrong with fake ids, as a matter of fact it seems to have become a right of passage for a lot of teenagers.

Charles the Curmudgeon.

Reply to
n5hsr

The hell that awaits you is just like what you describe.

Reply to
F.H.

The sequel was better:

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Reply to
larry moe 'n curly

Hot damn, my sides hurt. Thanks. :)

Reply to
F.H.

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