OT: Who thinks Pakistan is our ally?

Which of you morons has made this claim in the past? Come on - you know who you are. Stand up & be counted.

August 1, 2008 Pakistanis Aided Attack in Kabul, U.S. Officials Say By MARK MAZZETTI and ERIC SCHMITT WASHINGTON - American intelligence agencies have concluded that members of Pakistan's powerful spy service helped plan the deadly July 7 bombing of India's embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, according to United States government officials.

The conclusion was based on intercepted communications between Pakistani intelligence officers and militants who carried out the attack, the officials said, providing the clearest evidence to date that Pakistani intelligence officers are actively undermining American efforts to combat militants in the region.

The American officials also said there was new information showing that members of the Pakistani intelligence service were increasingly providing militants with details about the American campaign against them, in some cases allowing militants to avoid American missile strikes in Pakistan's tribal areas.

Concerns about the role played by Pakistani intelligence not only has strained relations between the United States and Pakistan, a longtime ally, but also has fanned tensions between Pakistan and its archrival, India. Within days of the bombings, Indian officials accused the Directorate of Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, of helping to orchestrate the attack in Kabul, which killed 54, including an Indian defense attaché.

This week, Pakistani troops clashed with Indian forces in the contested region of Kashmir, threatening to fray an uneasy cease-fire that has held since November 2003.

The New York Times reported this week that a top Central Intelligence Agency official traveled to Pakistan this month to confront senior Pakistani officials with information about support provided by members of the ISI to militant groups. It had not been known that American intelligence agencies concluded that elements of Pakistani intelligence provided direct support for the attack in Kabul.

American officials said that the communications were intercepted before the July 7 bombing, and that the C.I.A. emissary, Stephen R. Kappes, the agency's deputy director, had been ordered to Islamabad, Pakistan's capital, even before the attack. The intercepts were not detailed enough to warn of any specific attack.

The government officials were guarded in describing the new evidence and would not say specifically what kind of assistance the ISI officers provided to the militants. They said that the ISI officers had not been renegades, indicating that their actions might have been authorized by superiors.

"It confirmed some suspicions that I think were widely held," one State Department official with knowledge of Afghanistan issues said of the intercepted communications. "It was sort of this 'aha' moment. There was a sense that there was finally direct proof."

The information linking the ISI to the bombing of the Indian Embassy was described in interviews by several American officials with knowledge of the intelligence. Some of the officials expressed anger that elements of Pakistan's government seemed to be directly aiding violence in Afghanistan that had included attacks on American troops.

Some American officials have begun to suggest that Pakistan is no longer a fully reliable American partner and to advocate some unilateral American action against militants based in the tribal areas.

The ISI has long maintained ties to militant groups in the tribal areas, in part to court allies it can use to contain Afghanistan's power. In recent years, Pakistan's government has also been concerned about India's growing influence inside Afghanistan, including New Delhi's close ties to the government of Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president.

American officials say they believe that the embassy attack was probably carried out by members of a network led by Maulavi Jalaluddin Haqqani, whose alliance with Al Qaeda and its affiliates has allowed the terrorist network to rebuild in the tribal areas.

American and Pakistani officials have now acknowledged that President Bush on Monday confronted Pakistan's prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, about the divided loyalties of the ISI.

Pakistan's defense minister, Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar, told a Pakistani television network on Wednesday that Mr. Bush asked senior Pakistani officials this week, " 'Who is in control of ISI?' " and asked about leaked information that tipped militants to surveillance efforts by Western intelligence services.

Pakistan's new civilian government is wrestling with these very issues, and there is concern in Washington that the civilian leaders will be unable to end a longstanding relationship between members of the ISI and militants associated with Al Qaeda.

Spokesmen for the White House and the C.I.A. declined to comment for this article. Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, Husain Haqqani, did not return a call seeking comment.

Further underscoring the tension between Pakistan and its Western allies, Britain's senior military officer said in Washington on Thursday that an American and British program to help train Pakistan's Frontier Corps in the tribal areas had been delayed while Pakistan's military and civilian officials sorted out details about the program's goals.

Britain and the United States had each offered to send about two dozen military trainers to Pakistan later this summer to train Pakistani Army officers who in turn would instruct the Frontier Corps paramilitary forces.

But the British officer, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, said the program had been temporarily delayed. "We don't yet have a firm start date," he told a small group of reporters. "We're ready to go."

The bombing of the Indian Embassy helped to set off a new deterioration in relations between India and Pakistan.

This week, Indian and Pakistani soldiers fired at each other across the Kashmir frontier for more than 12 hours overnight Monday, in what the Indian Army called the most serious violation of a five-year-old cease-fire agreement. The nightlong battle came after one Indian soldier and four Pakistanis were killed along the border between sections of Kashmir that are controlled by India and by Pakistan.

Indian officials say they are equally worried about what is happening on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border because they say the insurgents who are facing off with India in Kashmir and those who target Afghanistan are related and can keep both borders burning at the same time.

India and Afghanistan share close political, cultural and economic ties, and India maintains an active intelligence network in Afghanistan, all of which has drawn suspicion from Pakistani officials.

When asked Thursday about whether the ISI and Pakistani military remained loyal to the country's civilian government, Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, sidestepped the question. "That's probably something the government of Pakistan ought to speak to," Admiral Mullen told reporters at the Pentagon.

Jalaluddin Haqqani, the militia commander, battled Soviet troops during the

1980s and has had a long and complicated relationship with the C.I.A. He was among a group of fighters who received arms and millions of dollars from the C.I.A. during that period, but his allegiance with Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda during the following decade led the United States to sever the relationship.

Mr. Haqqani and his sons now run a network that Western intelligence services say they believe is responsible for a campaign of violence throughout Afghanistan, including the Indian Embassy bombing and an attack on the Serena Hotel in Kabul earlier this year.

David Rohde contributed reporting from New York, and Somini Sengupta from New Delhi.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom
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But the spy service IS Pakistan. The president is a lame duck. You'd know this if....

Never mind.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

You have to consider degrees of power and the stability of each country. It's inconceivable that the DCIA would blatantly cricitize the US president or be involved in any attempt to overthrow the government. Not so with the head of Pakistan's ISI. It's not just a faction of the ISI that's anti-government; it's everybody at the top.

But that notion held true with South Africa during apartheid, where every State President was a former head of the Bureau of State Security. When they finally had a state president who wasn't, De Klerk, he changed the nation radically by eliminating apartheid and holding true democratic elections.

In the Soviet Union and Russia two former KGB heads led the nation: Andropov, who actually wanted to reform the government, and Putin, who's undone reform.

Reply to
larry moe 'n curly

Since Shuckland never learned of these concepts, you must be wrong. The logic is flawless.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

So? Do we still want this so-called "ally" for any particular reason?

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

It made sense 30 years ago. It makes no sense now. Now, go back to playing with whatever's oozing around in your diaper.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

There are no metaphors in what LMC wrote in his last message, beginning with the words "You have to consider."

If you disagree and believe there are metaphors, copy & paste an example from his words, into your next message.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

A country that cannot control its intelligence service cannot be an ally.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

Then they don't deserve the ally moniker and the perks that go with it.

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

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