Pick-up Truck Search Finally Over

After agonizing for over a year over which pick-up to buy, I finally picked one. I had a 14 year old F150 that I loved, but my 16 year old son managed to severely injure it (no reverse) which finally forced me into making a decision.

The candidates were -

Toyota Tacoma Toyota Tundra Ford F150 Chevrolet Colorado Nissan Frontier

The winner was the Nissan Frontier. The Frontier was selected more as the last one standing than because it was my initial favorite. Initially, I ranked them:

Tacoma Colorado F150 Tundra Frontier

I wanted a smaller truck, with 4WD, an automatic, and air conditioning. I eliminated the Tacoma because it was not price competitive. Of the five Toyota dealers closest to me, the lowest quoted price (w/o taxes and tags) was over $26K for a truck that met my minimum requirements (it had options I did not need, but they all did). I really wanted to like the Colorado and was close to buying one, but after setting in the truck and looking at the construction, I just decided to pass. It didn't help that I just had a horrible experience with another GM product (2003 Saturn Vue) and that the Colorado was the second most expensive truck I priced. The F150 was a very very nice truck. For most "ride around" truck buyers, it would be the best. But I hate the fact that they jacked the truck up so high and then raised the bed sides. For my use on a farm, it is just not suitable. Equipped as I wanted it, the Ford had the lowest quoted price but in the end I just decided it was not suitable for me, despite my long term satisfaction with my old F150. I think Ford has decided to copy the Chevrolet Silverado and target the F150 to people who buy trucks as alternate cars that can intimidate the neighbors and occasionally carry light loads. I wanted to like the Tundra. Over the last two years, I have test driven several (regular cab, extended cab, double cab), but in the end it is just a third rate copy of the old style (pre-2004) F150. It is big on the outside, while being cramped on the inside (regular cab) and they don't make a short wheelbase regular cab model (I wanted a shorter truck than the long bed model). Plus, the few I have seen in farm use just don't hold up. The Tundra was the second cheapest vehicle (almost the same as the Ford). The Tacoma is a better truck than the Tundra for me. And from what I have seen, Toyota is about to lay a giant egg with the new even larger Tundra. This left the Frontier. Initially I wasn't even going to look at one, since my feeling was that it was about the same size as the Tacoma and would be priced the same. This turned out to be wrong. The 4WD extended cab Frontier with the V6 and automatic was significantly cheaper than the equivalent Tacoma. The rear seats are a joke, but then I don't plan to use them as seats. The bed height was perfect, and the bed size was good. The V-6 has lots of power (more than needed). The seats are comfortable. The Frontier was not as cheap as the F150 or Tundra, but then it had more options (both the F150 and Tundra were stripped down "work trucks"). The Frontier had more stuff than I needed (power mirrors, power windows, power locks, etc, towing package, bed liner, CD player), but it was so close to the F150 work truck in price, and a better size, that I decided to give it a shot. At over $4000 less than the Tacoma, how wrong could I go?

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White
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Well, it MIGHT always happen that Nissan will turn the corner and make a vehicle that will actually survive, intact, for ten years.

Good luck on your crapshoot.. my bet is you'll have an engine and tranny... mebbe the complete running gear.. survive and wish you could transplant 'em.

BTW, did you actually LOOK for/at any 10 year old Nissan trucks?

Reply to
Backyard Mechanic

Ed,

Thanks for supporting US workers! We all appreciate it. Not!

By the way, I have a neighbor with a Fronteer that has been in the shop twice in its first 4 months. My 2005 F150 has never been back and everything is perfect...

Kirt

Reply to
Kirt Burgtorf

American union workers that are killing the American brand name? Plus - how many American trucks are built in Canada and Mexico? At least Japanese build them here in the US

Reply to
Dan J.S.

The majority of the Toyota light trucks sold in the US are imported not made in the US. GM and Ford build more light trucks in the US in two weeks, that are made of at least 70% American parts, than Toyota sells trucks in a year. With the exception of the Toyotas made in the GM/Toyota plant, those so called made in America Toyota cars and trucks are only assembled in the US of mostly imported parts. Check the first number of the VIN you will find a '5' not a '1'

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

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Toyota Motor Corp. produced more than 1 million vehicles at its North American assembly plants last year, and the Japanese automaker isn't slowing down.

Fujio Cho, TMC president, said Tuesday during a brief stop at Toyota's North American manufacturing headquarters in Erlanger that his company, now this country's fourth-largest automaker, will continue to produce as many vehicles in the United States it can sell.

Toyota now operates four North American assembly plants employing more than

30,500.
Reply to
Dan J.S.

Unless Toyota has changed its production mix, I thought the majority of Toyota trucks sold in the U.S. were assembled in the U.S. due to high truck tariffs.

Reply to
Ray O
30,500 workers that are paid lower wages, offered fewer benefits and less desirable medical coverage and pensions, who only assembly the vehicles in the US of mostly imported parts that sell for 20% to 30% more than comparable sized and equipped domestics. Get real. Do a bit of research the only manufacture that actually builds the majority of their vehicles in the US of mostly American parts are the domestics and Honda. All of the others only assemble vehicle in the US of foreign parts.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Higher tariffs on truck went away in the late eighties.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Regardless of truck tariffs, the majority of pickup trucks sold by Toyota are assembled in the U.S. On the other hand, SUV's other than the Sequoia are primarily assembled in Japan.

Reply to
Ray O

Precisely, merely assembled of mostly foreign parts, but not made in the US. That is why they have a '4' '5' or 'J' and not a '1' The only exceptions are those vehicles made in the GM/Toyota plant in California, where the UAW contract requires 75% American parts, those vehicles have a '1' as required by federal law.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Mike, why don't we make a little friendly wager. I will bet you $100 that if you go to a Toyota dealership this week and look at the new 2006 Camrys, you will see that their VINs begin with either a 4 or a J--not a 5 as you wrote in an earlier post. And looking at the Origin Stickers of those cars, you will see that the "4" cars will range between 75 and 80 percent American parts (most will be 80 percent).

Even my J-Vin Camry which was assembled in Japan AND whose engine and transmission are Japanese in origin--even my car's Origin Sticker still shows 80 percent American parts and 20 percent Japanese. (I wonder if the engine and tranny are each counted as only one part when determining the parts percentages??)

Anyhow, a friendly $100 bet payable through PayPal.com. Willing to bet? :-) I say Mike is NOT willing to bet [chuckle] :-)

Reply to
Built_Well

As Hachi and I mentioned months ago, and as wacky as it may sound, for the 2006 Camry they must have shipped a whole lot of American parts over to Japan because even the J-Vin '06 Camrys show on their Origin stickers 80 percent American parts. Kinda odd. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't we be shipping Japanese parts here?

Interesting thing to note is that the '05 and '06 RAV4s show different numbers in the 11th spot of their VINs. The '05 RAVs I've checked on the net have a zero for their assembly plant VIN position while the '06 RAV shows a 5.

(American plants are designated by a letter, but the Japan plants use a number.)

Still searching for the elusive Japan plant code legend...

Reply to
Built_Well

Incidentally, the '06 J-Vin RAV4 I saw on my local dealer's lot showed 100 percent Japan parts, but not so the '06 J-Vin Camry.

Even the J-Vin Camrys for 2006 show 80 percent American parts. I wonder if the same is true for the 2005 Camry and 2004? How long has this been going on?

I mean American auto parts are great, but I bought a J-Vin Camry because I wanted a Japanese car to replace my J-Vin Tercel (may it rest in peace).

If I wanted a Malibu, I woulda bought a Malibu.

Any '05 or '04 "J-Vin" Camry buyers remember what their Origin Stickers said? I'm guessing you probably don't remember, because the dealer usually throws away the Origin Sticker when prepping your car for you to take home. The dealer will hand you the "Window Sticker" (at least mine did) but the Origin Sticker was trashed, and I didn't remember to ask for it.

I wonder if the '05 and '04 Camrys assembled in Japan also show

80 percent American parts, like the '06 does?
Reply to
Built_Well

Here are some interesting passages about Toyota from a recent 2005 issue of Fortune:

Profits "in fiscal 2003, which ended in March, jumped 67%, to $10.3 billion--more than the profits of GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler, and Volkswagen combined."

Judging from the above figures, it can be said that "Toyota has long since kicked the Japanese habit of chasing sales and market share at the expense of profit."

"...Toyota now runs 47 plants in 26 overseas markets--up from 20 plants in

14 foreign countries in 1990--and generates more than 70% of its profits overseas. In the next two years, Toyota will add factories in Mexico, the Czech Republic, and the U.S. and roll out an ambitious campaign to make up lost ground in China. As foreign production lines multiply, executives are struggling to cut months from the time required to launch new models, and they are working with suppliers on a radical program to slash tens of billions of dollars in annual spending on parts."

"Until now, the Japanese automaker has pursued a strategy of localization--establishing factories in major markets and building out supply chains in each country. Increasingly, though, Toyota executives are coming to view the world as a single integrated market and are hatching bold plans to launch models simultaneously around the globe, with parts manufactured in one country designed for use in vehicles assembled in another. All this comes as Toyota is pushing harder than ever at home, where it has raised market share to a record 46%."

"At the Tsutsumi plant in Toyota City, 6,600 employees working two shifts on two separate production lines can turn out 500,000 vehicles a year in eight model variations at a rate of one per minute. It is a ballet of astonishing precision, enhanced by a myriad of tiny improvements on the factory floor. Along one segment of the line, workers fastening parts beneath the dashboard straddle mechanized chairs that enable them to bounce in and out of the passenger compartment with a minimum of squatting and bending. At another, robots guide air conditioners into optimum position for manual installation. Further on, engineers have fashioned a mechanism of coils and magnets to lift bolts from a parts bin in the exact size and sequence required."

"The kaizen approach has been widely emulated in the auto industry, but getting it right is harder than it looks. Indeed, Toyota is so certain its methods can't be replicated through observation alone that each year it welcomes tens of thousands of visitors--many from rival carmakers--to tour its factories. The truth is, even Toyota struggles to make the system work effectively outside Japan."

"Toyota is so big now," says Teruo Suzuki, general manager of Toyota's human resources department. "We make so many cars in so many different places with so many people. Our greatest fear is that as we keep growing, our ability to maintain the discipline of kaizen will be lost."

"In an effort to speed the transmission of skills on the factory floor, Toyota recently created a new facility, the Global Production Center, in a corner of its Motomachi plant in Toyota City. Trainees begin by watching "visual manuals" illustrating basic production techniques, then move to a practice area where they perform progressively more complicated tasks. A December visit to the center found a class of about

1,500 workers--half from overseas facilities in China, Malaysia, and Indonesia--being drilled at stations for parts pickup, welding, painting, and plastic stamping."

Toyota's CEO since 1999 Fujio Cho, meanwhile, is "trying to apply what he learned on the factory floor to corporate management: He wants to shorten the chain of command, improve accountability, and speed up the decision-making process. Last year he slashed the number of Toyota directors from 58 to 27. He hopes to increase the number of non-Japanese directors, now only five. And he says he wants a management structure that is as instantly responsive as Toyota's production lines. "If there's a problem," Cho says, "I want to hear about it in an hour."

"Cho is an affable and low-key manager who prefers to give credit to his predecessors and subordinates rather than steal attention for himself. He is also a nimble problem solver, quick to adapt to conditions at hand. Cho says he learned the value of flexibility during his nine-year stint a s general manager of the Georgetown plant. The constant questioning from U.S. workers, he says, helped him see that many aspects of Toyota's production process had to be retooled for U.S. factories--and could be improved on in Japan as well. He realized, he says, that "we did a lot of things without thinking, because we had been taught in a certain way by our predecessors, and it seemed to work, so we just did it." Toyota's expansion into the U.S., he argues, "rejuvenated the entire company, forcing everyone to make adjustments and abandon outdated ideas."

Now Toyota faces a similar challenge in China, the world's fastest-growing auto market. In Beijing last spring, Akio Toyoda, grandson of the company's founder and the executive leading its China operation, acknowledged that Toyota "is still the new kid on the block." That's putting it politely. The Japanese company, which makes only about 130,000 vehicles in China and has a market share of less than 5%, trails far behind Volkswagen, GM, and Honda. Toyota hopes to boost production to one million units and raise its China market share to 10% by the end of the decade. But it has made some uncharacteristic blunders."

"After the normalization of relations in the 1970s, Toyota was the odds-on favorite to lead the first wave of foreign investment in China's auto industry. But Toyota, preoccupied with efforts in the U.S., dithered over Beijing's invitation. Chinese leaders took offense. In the 1990s they shrewdly exploited Toyota's desire for an alliance with China's strongest domestic maker, state-run Shanghai Automotive, to secure a sweeter deal with GM. Toyota compounded its problems by turning up its nose at an overture from Guangzhou Automobile, the next-best ally, allowing Honda to rush in and close a deal. Finally, in 2002, with attractive dance partners disappearing, Toyota was permitted to form an alliance with First Autoworks in Changchun."

"This past September, Toyota announced plans to spend $460 million on a plant to produce Camry sedans with Guangzhou Automobile and cooperate with FAW in producing Prius hybrids, now made only in Japan. Bringing hybrids to China is a bold step that signals Toyota's commitment to get in the game. Most Japanese manufacturers are loath to take leading technologies to China for fear they will be stolen. And Chinese consumers aren't exactly clamoring for environmentally friendly cars--especially if they have to pay extra for the privilege of driving them. But the decision makes an important statement. Beijing is eager to promote clean, fuel-efficient vehicles and has made it clear that it expects Toyota to share its best technology with Chinese partners as the price of admission to China's market."

The Chinese aren't the only ones hoping to get their hands on Toyota's hybrid technologies. During a trade mission to Tokyo in November, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger made a point of seeing Cho to urge him to build a Prius factory in his state. Cho says Toyota intends to manufacture some form of hybrid vehicle in the U.S. by 2006 and that it will decide on a location within the next few months. In the meantime Toyota is scrambling to meet U.S. demand for hybrids. It will double to 100,000 the number of Prius sedans it ships to the U.S. this year, and it is rolling out sleek hybrid versions of its Highlander and Lexus SUVs. Critics say Toyota is losing money on each hybrid car it sells, but securing early dominance in the hybrid market is likely to yield future dividends."

---- The above were only excerpts from the Fortune Magazine article. If you want to read the whole thing, it's the February 7, 2005 issue.

Reply to
Built_Well

What I found most intriguing about the preceding excerpts was the following passage (I'll tell you why in a second):

"Until now, the Japanese automaker has pursued a strategy of

**localization**--establishing factories in major markets and building out supply chains in **each** country. Increasingly, though, Toyota executives are coming to view the world as a single integrated market and are hatching bold plans to launch models simultaneously around the globe, with parts manufactured in **one** country designed for use in vehicles assembled in another." [END OF QUOTE]

Could this mean North American parts might start showing up in Toyota vehicles assembled in other countries? Who knows, but in coming years, Toyota might revitalize Delphi, Visteon, AC Delco, etc.

Like mentioned yesterday, my Camry assembled in Japan consists of

80 percent North American parts.
Reply to
Built_Well

What a surprise. I thought Corollas from Japan were history, but if you look at Ackerman Toyota's online inventory of 22 Corollas, you'll see 3 Corolla VINs starting with the "J" and the plant is plant zero "0".

Ackerman also has one Corolla from Canada.

Reply to
Built_Well

I'm still waiting for employee pricing with 0% financing and customer loyalty cash back! Sold a lot of cars (at a loss) for GM!

Reply to
Wolfgang

Hope you're patient!

Reply to
Ray O

The following is from LexisNexis.com (free to search but 3 dollars per document that you read--not exactly Wal-Mart pricing).

It's especially interesting in the second half, when it talks about the Camry and Avalon's percentages of domestic parts.

Chicago Tribune (August 11, 2002)

HEADLINE: Label of contents Window stickers of parts origin show how tricky it is to 'buy American'

Since 1994, car shoppers intent on "buying American" have had an extra weapon in their arsenal. But according to a study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, they generally don't use it.

Shoppers who want to determine how "red, white and blue" a vehicle's DNA is, can get some help by looking at the domestic content label, which is near or included in the Monroney Label, the window sticker that contains standard and optional equipment and prices. Yet most people have never heard of it.

The American Automobile Labeling Act requires these labels on every passenger vehicle made after Oct. 1, 1994.

In what is known as the domestic content label law, Congress requires three pieces of information: the percent of U.S./Canadian parts that each model contains, where the vehicle is assembled and where the engine and transmission are built.

More than 75 percent of 646 consumers surveyed in the 1998 NHTSA study, even those who described themselves as caring deeply about "buying American," were unaware of the labels. But 56 percent of those said awareness of the label would influence future vehicle purchases.

Of the people surveyed, who had bought or leased new vehicles in the last six months or were planning to do so within three months, 23 percent knew of the label. Of those, 15 percent said they had seen it; 7 percent had read the label at a dealership; 5 percent were influenced by it to some degree; and 2 percent were moderately or strongly influenced by the label's country of assembly information. Nobody used the labels to comparison-shop makes and models by U.S.-Canadian parts content.

Yet, one-sixth of the people surveyed, which the study said extrapolates to 2.5 million new-vehicle sales per year in the U.S., said it was critically important that vehicles be made in the U.S. or Canada. They said they try to "buy American" in general.

The catch was that even this group was no more aware of the domestic content labels than the average consumer.

Most people in this group simply "buy American" by choosing a vehicle built by one of the Big Three U.S. automakers. They were not using the information about percent of domestic content to find models with the highest percent of U.S./Canadian parts.

Using that approach, someone could buy a Ford Explorer built in Louisville, which has 75 percent domestic parts, without realizing that he or she could have considered several other vehicles built in the U.S. or Canada by Japanese manufacturers Toyota and Honda with the same domestic content.

For example, the Honda Odyssey minivan, built in Alliston, Ontario, has

75 percent domestic parts, and the Toyota Avalon, built in Georgetown, Ky., has 80 percent. [Built_Well's aside: Ray O. does your Avalon's VIN begin with a 4 or a 1?]

That raises the question about whether there is an "American" vehicle anymore. "We think it's reliable and accurate information and helpful information for consumers who are looking for that information," said Stephen Collins, president of the Automotive Trade Policy Council, a trade lobbying organization that represents German-owned DaimlerChrysler, Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp.

Paul Ryan sees it differently.

"It is outdated, inaccurate and misleading," said Ryan, director for commercial affairs with the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, a lobbying organization that represents 15 motor vehicle manufacturers and suppliers.

One of the issues, as Ryan sees it, is that "domestic" treats U.S. and Canadian content as the same under the Auto Pact, which integrated the nations' automotive industries in 1965. So it depends on whether you think of Canada as "domestic." The other is that the law doesn't include the value of the final assembly labor. So Japanese manufacturers with assembly plants in the U.S. don't get to include the value of their American workers' labor.

"This law is outdated in view of the global nature of the automobile industry. With Ford owning Volvo and Jaguar, and GM owning all or part of just about everybody--Saab, Subaru, Suzuki, Isuzu--these simplistic approaches make no sense.

"You could buy the most quintessential American product--a Chrysler Jeep--but do the profits go to Detroit or back to Stuttgart? The industry is highly integrated and highly globalized and it makes it well-nigh impossible to decide who is 'us' and who is 'them,'" Ryan said.

Collins agrees that the auto industry has become more globalized. But "it's still also true that the Big Three employ the vast majority of auto workers in this country. Also, the domestic content figures for GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler are going to be higher than for the transplants," he said.

That is changing.

The 1998 NHTSA survey showed that between 1995 and 1998 the domestic parts content of vehicles built by the Big Three fell to 84 from 89 percent. In that time, the domestic content of vehicles assembled in North America by manufacturers such as Toyota and Honda has risen to 59 from 47 percent.

The NHTSA survey attributes these trends to two trade agreements. One is the North American Free Trade Act among the U.S., Canada and Mexico, which has reduced the U.S./Canadian parts content because more parts are sourced and purchased in Mexico. The other is the 1995 U.S.-Japan Agreement on Autos and Auto Parts aimed at increasing U.S. parts content in vehicles assembled and sold in North America by Japanese-based companies.

Toyota is an example of what has been happening with "transplant" manufacturers.

"In our case, 65 percent of our products that are sold in North American are built in North America. All our core products are domestically built," said John McCandless, spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales USA.

All 245,023 Corollas that Toyota sold in the U.S. in 2001 were built in Fremont, Calif., or Cambridge, Ontario. [Built_Well's note: For 2006, anyway, some Corollas sold in America were assembled in Japan--see Ackerman Toyota's online inventory.]

All Matrix models are built in Cambridge. All Avalons and Sienna minivans are built in Georgetown, Ky. All pickup trucks are built in the U.S.: the Tacoma in Fremont and the Tundra in Princeton, Ind.

The Sequoia sport-utility vehicle also is built in Princeton. In 2001, Toyota sold 68,574 Sequoias.

"Most of the Camrys sold in the U.S. are built in Kentucky, although the demand has been such that in our limited capacity we do still bring in some from Japan," McCandless said. In 2001, Toyota sold 390,449 Camrys in the U.S.; 83,193 were imported from Japan with 307,256 built in Kentucky (sedans) or Cambridge (Solara coupe and convertible).

In line with the findings of the NHTSA survey, the domestic parts content of Toyotas has been increasing, McCandless said, as the automaker has added a transmission plant to its engine plant in Buffalo, W.Va. And it will continue to grow when the company begins to produce V-8 engines at a new plant in Huntsville, Ala., next spring, he said.

From the 2001 to the 2002 model years, for example, the domestic parts content has risen to 80 from 75 percent in the Avalon; to 50 from 45 percent in the Tacoma; to 65 from 60 percent in the Sequoia; and to 75 from 65 percent in Sienna.

But it will take a few years before Toyota catches up to the Saturn S-Series, which is built in Spring Hill, Tenn., with a domestic content of 95 percent.

Reply to
Built_Well

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