The logic is obvious. If the nuts are too loose and the car is fully lowered, then the weight of the car will shift the load among the bolts in an uneven fashion, and even if you torque the nuts when the car is on the ground, they will not be equally tight against the wheel.
But if one takes reasonable care to gently (but firmly) tighten the nuts while the car is in the air, then this should not be a problem. Then do the final tightening when the car is fully lowered, or when the wheels are barely touching if you are really paranoid (I am sure that does not apply to anyone in this newsgroup).
Ray_O already mentioned (long before you, Mark) that the wheels need to be firmly seated onto the bolts/studs with the nuts so that there is no play in the wheel before lowering. You're simply repeating what he already said many posts ago.
The firm seating can be either finger-tight as mentioned in the Camry manual or snugged a bit more with a turn or two of the lug wrench before lowering the car (as "Auto Upkeep" prefers).
Then the full torquing can be accomplished with the car completely lowered onto the ground (Camry manual) or with the car's tires just barely touching the ground ("Auto Upkeep").
Mark, if you had read more carefully, you would have understood that the logic we're wondering about is /not/ the initial seating of the wheels before lowering. That is a simple given.
The logic we're wondering about is Auto Upkeep's recommendation of fully tightening the wheels with the car's tires just barely touching the ground (*without the car actually being fully lowered yet*) /versus/ the Camry manual's recommendation of completely lowering the car before fully tightening the lug nuts.
I guess it takes careful reading to make this fine distinction. Mark, you might want to try harder next time.
I recommend you re-read the steps I posted from the "Auto Upkeep" book.
Please do not snip my post, because you missed what I said. I explained the difference.
If you lower the car completely without the wheels being sufficiently tight against the hub, you may not be able to get the proper torque on them. That is because a slightly loose wheel when lowered to ground will be supporting the full weight of the car without being tight and will put an uneven force on the lugnut.
Now, if the wheel is secured flush against hub, even if not completely tightened, then this problem will probably not occur, but the Auto Upkeep recommendation is based on the assumption to be sure the wheel is flush against the hub, then tighten it before it is supporting the full weight of the car, but after it is low enough to make sure no problems will occur if it falls off the jack (since it is already close to the ground).
See, I would consider these to be the MINIMAL level of quality that I'd be willing to accept before I climb under something. These aren't exactly tool steel here.
Until they split at the seams like Harbor Freight crap is wont to do, dropping a car down on top of you. No thanks.
I am cheap, but there are some things I am willing to spend a lot of money for, and jack stands are in that category.
Apparently I have to repeat it because you don't understand English. If you want to call that rhetoric, that is your problem.
I explained the difference quite clearly. Toyota wants to err on the side of safety, and the other book wants to err on the side of making sure the wheel is flat against the hub before the lug nuts are tightened.
Well, Scott, this is the pleasant surprise. Although the 6-ton jack stands were on sale at Harbor Freight for only $20, they were of /surprisingly/ good quality.
I will agree with you that some of Harbor Freight's low-end tools that are dirt-cheap are very poorly made and of bad quality (especially their cheap ratchet/socket sets), but the pleasant thing about these 6-ton jack stands was how well-made they were.
In fact, the Harbor Freight jack stands far-and-away beat the quality of the stands I found at both Sears and Walmart, which were strikingly poor and rough.
However, as I mentioned last time, the DuraLast stands at AutoZone are the best I've seen.
You won't be disappointed by the Harbor Freight stands. If you need some very good 6-ton stands really cheap, hurry in before their sale ends. And if you want the very best stands, pick up the DuraLast at AutoZone.
The problem is you don't want to pay the price for a GOOD set of stands. All of the posts you have put up talk about how this store or the other has them CHEAPER. A GOOD quality tool isn't cheap. And your NOT going to find them at Auto-Zone or Walmart or HF.
You were talking about floor jacks for under 100 bucks. The short floor jack I use was well over $500.00 Made in the US and rated for 4 tons with a 200% safety margin. The cheapest stands I use are 12 ton rated and were 140 bucks for a pair. They weigh over 30 pounds each.
Steve W., I don't think even Ray_O paid over $500 for a floor jack or $140 for a pair of stands. Steve W., are you in the auto repair business, and use the equipment on customer's vehicles? In that case, I could see justifying the expense.
So is your LIFE worth the extra expense? Ever seen what happens if a jack fails or a stand collapses? How about while your under the vehicle? The "I can't justify that amount" sounds a LOT like the guys who buy motorcycle helmets and tires based on price.
Look at it this way, If your life and the end result of a vehicle coming down and crushing you are destroying parts of the vehicle are cheap then buy low end items.
I buy quality tools regardless of use. I also buy a few low end tools for use by others. However those are not tools that will kill you if they fail.
Bruce L. Bergman wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Not a good idea. The paint has thickness, which will wear down to nothing with the constant flexing of the wheels. This risks loosening the lug nuts and causing noises while cornering at low speed.
The correct solution is, very simply, to undo the lug nuts and remove the wheels twice per year. While the wheels are off, rub some 50-grit emery cloth on the hub/wheel interfaces, wipe them clean, then reinstall.
Rust-welding is a function of the time joints spend undisturbed. Disturb the joints twice per year and you won't have any seized components.
aarcuda69062 wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net:
I think he's referring to "pro" quality versus "home" quality.
There are lots of auto tools that are just fine when used occasionally by your average home grease monkey (such as me), but would be wholly inappropriate for the professional tech who is using them every hour of every day.
Not exactly. Dying as a result of being crushed to death by a car is one of the most excruciating ways to go. It is not instantaneous death. Don't even think about yelling for help because in all likelihood you won't have enough breadth to yell out loud enough that anyone can hear you.
According to the friend/co-worker I bought it from, the jack I use was in the neighborhood of $400 new about 25 years ago. I paid him $50 for it. I'm trying to find out what my dad did with his Snap-On jack, which has a much longer wheelbase so it is easier to reach under the car.
My jack stands are only rated to 6 ton, but they are good enough for me. Most of the stand is cast iron, not stamped, and probably weigh around 25 lbs each.
Like Steve W, I want something that absolutely positively won't fail if I'm going to crawl under the car, and IMO, the money spent for a quality jack and jack stands is a lot less than the hospital bills that will result from a failure (if I'm lucky) or the damage to the vehicle from being dropped.
I have a fair collection of tools, and IMO, you get what you pay for. If I think I will only use a tool once, I'll get a cheap tool like a Stanley, but if I'm going to use it regularly, then I try to invest in quality. I ended up with some Stanley screwdrivers, and the blades on every flat screwdriver are either chipped and/or bent. The don't engage screw heads well, resulting in more stripped screws. I don't like the feel of Stanley or Craftsman screwdrivers in my hand - they are hard to grip and result in blisters after long use, while the blades on my Snap-On and Mac screwdrivers are still in perfect shape. The walls on cheap sockets are much thicker, making them difficult to use in tight spaces, they don't grip bolt heads as well as a good 6 point socket, the chrome finish chips off, and I've split several cheap sockets. My fine-tooth Snap-on ratchets work much more smoothly, especially when starting bolts, and the fine teeth allow better back-and-forth motions when working in tight spaces.
For automotive applications, Snap-On, Mac, and Matco are what most pros use. Plumbers seem to prefer Rigid tools, and electricians seem to prefer Klein and Greenlee. Good tools make the work go more smoothly and fit in the hand better.
I think that if you're on the side of the road in the middle of the night, and you're using that flimsy emergency jack, and your jacking surface is mud or dirt or gravel, Toyota may have the right idea: Put that wheel on fast, minimize the time the car is jacked up and get the hell out of there! You are correct that Toyota had safety in mind with these instructions. However, the real truth is that tire changes should only be done by someone with experience who knows what the dangers are.
I work on the car using a floor jack. I will always get the nuts seated before putting any weight on the tires. The nuts are torqued a second time with the tire barely touching and final torqued with the full weight on the tires. I see no reason to do it any other way. OTOH, I have been known to apply engine oil to my studs but don't try this at home kids - I'm a very bad boy...
Why not jest jack it up.....crawl under there....take a gander... and spend the 2 minutes to jack it up, set up the jack stands, and take a gander???
maybe.....the 5 minutes in the book IS better, i don't know, i'm old fashioned.
Hmmmmm.......could you please post a link to THAT tightening spec.........and....where can a feller find a bag of new drain bolt gaskets??
It's VERY evident.......you haven't done production engine oil changes.......trust me.......YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THE RAG. Now, to back this up.....I would like to WAGER a YEARS...... pay.....that if i give YOU ...100 (one hundred)...HOT engine oil changes to do.....that yer crazy arse is gonna CUSS like a rabid monkey at least a couple of times before you're done, AND...... yer gonna have oil in yer armpits.
:)
No wonder you don't need a rag........you only change the oil on COLD engines. That's cool, yer choice.
~:~ marshmonster ~takes a toke....fk it........let's git messy.....it's a tech thing... drives a screwdriver through the oil filter and gives er a spin~ ~:~
Marsh Monster wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
All I said was not to add more lube to the OEM Toyota gasket; it doesn't need any more than what's already there.
If you look in the engine compartment and the filter is pointing straight at you like a flower in the garden, and if the drain bolt can be easily accessed while lying on the driveway, there's not much point in jacking it up, is there?
I'm looking at a factory shop manual for a '99 Tercel, which is a Toyota. On pages SS-16 and LU-3, the torque spec is given as 18 ft-lbs. If you're in the trade, you should be able to see the same thing on your shop's computers.
I buy my drain plug gaskets at the Toyota dealer (which is where I also buy my filters). The gaskets cost 50 cents each. Since I change the car's oil every two months, I spend a whopping three dollars a year for gaskets.
We're not talking about production oil changes. We're talking about a home grease monkey lying at an awkward angle on his driveway, and doing a half-dozen changes a year.
Since I'm not working the pit at Jelly Lube, I have time to leave the engine about 15 minutes before draining the oil.
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