RAV4 Concern

I am looking for some advice for my sister regarding a problem her RAV4 developed

The car is a 2008 RAV4 V6 Automatic. She was at my Mothers yesterday and when she got in the car to drive to her home (approximately 150 miles away) a problem developed. When she started the car on, she heard a repetitive knocking sound from under the hood, followed by the illumination of the VSC warningight and the check engine light.

I was too far away to physically examine the car, but my assumption is that the knocking noise was the ABS controller and that the VSC and Check Engine lights are related to some sort of elecronics failure in the ABS/VSC system.

At the time of the failure the RAV4 was parked on grass in the yard. The temperature was moderate (70ish) and the yard was dry. She had driven the car the day before with no problems. She checked the brakes and they were fine. She drove the vehicle a few miles and all seemed fine except for the warning lights (VSC and Check Engine). The check engine light was on steady, not flashing.

I told her the car would be OK to drive back home (~150 miles). She was not willing to do that and borrowed my Mother's car instead. The Toyota dealer that sold her the RAV4 is approximately 140 miles from my Mother's home. The nearest Toyota dealer is about 20 miles away. At least for the cars that I own, I believe that it is OK to drive the car with an illuminated check engine light for a day or two. Only if the light is flashing should you stop immeadiately. Am I wrong about this in the case of a Toyota?

Should we have the car moved by a rolback? I think not, but would hate to be wrong.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White
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There is no way to know if the Check Engine Light is telling you (her) of a fatal condition that the car must not be driven, or it is caused by the gas cap not being screwed on tight. You have to pull the codes to know why the light is on. Once you know this, you can make the decision to drive the car home or to the dealership, or have it towed.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

It is kind of hard to rear the codes with the car sitting 20 miles from the dealership. However, I carefully read the owners guide and it confirms what I thought, you can drive the vehicle in this condition. After reading the manual, reading stuff on the internet and looking for TSBs related to the problem, this is what I sent my sister:

I looked on the internet and it does seem this is a common problem with Toyotas. Apaprently the MIL always comes on if the VSC comes on (I have no idea why). There is not a service bulleting related to this concern.

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For the Check Engine Light (aka Malfunction Indicator lamp) the manual says: "Take vehicle to Toyota dealer." It does not say stop immeadiately. The further explaination section has the following information:

(f) Malfunction Indicator Lamp

This lamp comes on when the engine switch is turned to the "ON" position and goes off after the engine starts. This means that the warning light system is operating properly. If the lamp remains on, or the lamp comes on while driving, first check the followings.

  • Empty fuel tank If the fuel tank is empty, refuel immediately
  • Loose fuel tank cap If the fuel tank cap is loose, securely tighten it.

These cases are temporary malfunctions.

The malfunction indicator lamp will go off after taking several driving trips. If the lamp does not go off even after several trips, contact your Toyota dealer as soon as possible.

If the fuel tank is not empty or the fuel tank cap is not loose...

  • There is a problem somewhere in the engine, emission control system, electronic throttle control system, automatic transmission electrical system or warning light system itself.

Contact your Toyota dealer as soon as possible to service the vehicle.

If engine speed does not increase when the accelerator pedal is depressed, there may be a problem somewhere in the electronic throttle control system.

At this time, vibration may occur. However, if you depress the accelerator pedal more firmly and slowly, you can drive your vehicle at low speeds. Have your vehicle checked by your Toyota dealer as soon as possible.

Even if the abnormality of the electronic throttle control system is corrected during low speed driving, the system may not be recovered until the engine is stopped and the engine switch is turned to the "ACC" or "LOCK" position.

CAUTION Be especially careful to prevent erroneous pedal operation.

Emissions Inspection and Maintenance (I/M) programs

Your vehicle may not pass a state emission inspection if the malfunction indicator lamp remains on. Contact your Toyota dealer to check your vehicle's emission control system and OBD (On?Board Diagnostics) system before taking your vehicle for the inspection.

For details, see "Emissions Inspection and Maintenance (I/M) programs" on page 394 in Section 6.

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For the VSC light the manual says: "Take vehicle to Toyota dealer." The further explaination section has the following information:

(l) "VSC" Warning Light

The light warns that there is a problem somewhere in the following.

  • Enhanced vehicle stability control system * Traction control system * " AUTO LSD" system * Downhill assist control system * Hill?start assist control system

The light will come on when the engine switch is turned to the "ON" position and will go off after a few seconds.

If the light comes on while driving, all the above systems will not work. In such a case, the brakes will operate when applied (no electronic assistance will be available), and it will be possible to continue driving the vehicle.

In the following cases, contact your Toyota dealer:

  • The warning light does not come on after the engine switch is turned to the "ON" position. * The warning light remains on after the engine switch is turned to the "ON" position. * The warning light comes on while driving
Reply to
C. E. White

I did not say it was braking related. It is Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) related. The brakes were working just fine. In fact the car drove fine, except for the VSC light and the MIL. And it was my Sister's car, not my Mother's. The Owner's Guide indicated it was OK to drive the car with these light on, but that you should take it to your Toyota Dealer soon.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

My sister checked with the dealer nearest my Mother's home. They confirmed it was Ok to drive the car to the dealership, but said it would cost $85 to run the diagnostics. The car has more than 36,000 miles (bumper to bumper warranty limit), but fewer than 60,000 miles (powertrain warranty). I've read the warranty guide and cannot decide if the VSC comes under the Bumper to Bumper Warranty or under the Powertrain Warranty. Does anyone know for sure? The Powertrain Warranty specifically includes "Transmission and Transaxle; Case and all internal parts, torque converter, clutch cover, transmission mounts, transfer case and all internal parts, engine control computer, seals and gaskets.."

It seems to me tha the VSC is part of the engine control computer, but I don't know for sure. I do know for instance that the cruise control is covered under the Federal Emmisions warranty, so I don't think it is a stretch to think the VSC is covered under the powertrain warranty.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

The VSC gets it's information from speed sensors, and uses a compressor-like motor to apply brake pressure to an errant spinning wheel. The noise your sister reported could be a problem with the compressor. In this case, all you would not have from a functionality standpoint is the stability control -- millions of people today do not have stability control and they do just fine. If VSC goes away, that's no big deal. It is a system that you paid dearly for, and probably want it to work, but if it takes a bye then it's no big deal. The car won't suffer any lasting damage because you drove it with the VSC indicator lit.

The speed sensors are used for lots of jobs on your car, and having one or more in failure mode can cause drivability problems, but I doubt there would be any lasting damage if the car was operated while they were offline. You want the speed sensors to be working though, so you don't have an option on ignoring them for very long. You can ignore the VSC light for the rest of your ownership period, but you shouldn't ignore speed sensors.

If I were you, I'd be down at AutoZone or equivelent to buy a scan tool. Granted, it won't help you very much with your sister's car 50 miles away, but since Sis has to drive back and forth past your house to get to your Mom's or the dealership, you could catch up with her once in a while to pull codes. My experience is that there are 4 different scanners for shade-tree guys, ranging from about $60 to about $250. I bought one for $150, and it gives me all of the information I need for most repairs to my cars. I had one instance where I wish I had more information that my scan tool could not provide. Since it can cost about $80 to pull codes, I figure my scanner has paid for itself already, and I've only had it for a little over a year. It can be used on any '96 or later model year car or truck sold in the USA. Without a scan tool, you have no clue why the MIL is illuminated. Your issue today may or may not be related to the VSC. Frankly, odds favor there being a relationship, but you really don't know.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

It depends on what component is ultimately the culprit. Toyota uses the brake system, wheel speed sensors, roll/yaw sensors, etc. to accomplish VSC, TRAC and Auto LSD. If it's the brake pump or a sensor that failed, then it probably won't be covered under the powertrain warranty. These components are clearly not part of the engine or transmission.

An actual engine control computer failure would probably be covered under the powertrain warranty. "Random" computer failures are rare, though, unless there are systemic manufacturing defects (as it is the case with the

2005-2008 2WD Corolla and Matrix recall).
Reply to
First of One

Ed, if the MIL is illuminated constantly, the vehicle is safe to drive. If the MIL is flashing, then it is not safe to drive.

With the MIL and VSC lights illuminated, the vehicle is safe to drive but the VSC is inoperative so it will operate like a vehicle that is not equipped with VSC.

VSC components are generally not covered under the powertrain warranty. Did your sister try cycling the ignition off and re-start the vehicle? The knocking sound is the ABS system doing a self-check, and if one of the wheels did not rotate at the same speed as the others, the ABS light will illuminate and the ABS/VSC won't work until the system is cycled off and back on.

Reply to
Ray O

"Ray O" wrote in message news:ib6ssj$4vr$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org...

Ray.

Thanks for chiming in.

It seems my Sisters original description of the problem was somewhat a red herring. Like you I was sure the knocking sound was the ABS unit cycling. Turns out it was something to do with the variable vale timing control on one bank of cams. Last Friday she took the car to the local Toyota dealer. It turns out this is a common problem for V6 RAV4s (and Camry and Avalons, etc) of her vintage. There is a valve that controls the oil fow to the variable valve timing mechanism that goes bad. When this happens it can set an engine code (in fact several different codes are possible), turns on the MIL light AND turns off the VSC and Crusie Control. According to what the Toyota service guy told her, any fault that illuminates the MIL (check engine light) also disables the VSC and turns on the VSC warning light. Appranetly replacing the failed OCV (oil control valve) is easy since they only alot 30 minutes for the fix. It would have been nice if they had the part in stock, but the local dealer was out of parts for this fix. There is a TSB that describes the problem and fix. This problem is covered by the powertrain warranty. Two things bothered me - 1) The way I read the TSB, her car should have already had the improved part, and 2) if the failure is so common, why are they only replacing one of the valves? I figure the one on the other bank will probably fail shortly after her powertrain warranty expires.

When she bought the RAV4 I told her to get the 4 cylinder, but she wouldn't listen to me. She had to have the V6. So out of the four Toyotas family members own, she is the only one who has had a warranty issue..... She is also the slowest driver and has no need for more power. She had to have alloy wheels too.....

I did tell her what you said about the car being safe to drive home with the MIL light on steady, but she didn't believe it. The Toyota service guy told her the same thing, so she drove it back home on Saturday without incident. The Toyota service guy turned off the MIL, so she would have cruise control and it stayed off till she got home. Hopefully her regular Toyota dealer won't be out of the part she needs.

Thanks again.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

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