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Re: CAFE standards controlled by our Government? Can someone explain why?

>> >> >>> The PRIUS as I understand has a superior MPG to standard >>> gasoline-only >>> powered cars. I'm also lead to believe their is a back order on >>> the >>> PRIUS. I'm told to get a PRIUS you have to get in line and get on >>> the >>> waiting list. If this is true then it seems logical that a very >>> high >>> CAFE would force toyota to produce MANY more Prius than now, >>> making >>> the waiting list disappear >> >> The waiting list have disappeared and Toyota is even offering >> incentives on the Prius. And Prius sales are way up. However, the >> main advantage of the Prius is stop and go driving. For open road >> driving, there are non-hybrid choices that are just as good that >> don't involve battery packs, electric motors and complicated >> control systems. >> >> Ed > > I disagree with Ed a little bit. The Toyota Camry 4.cyl gets 24/34 > mpg (city/highway) while the Camry hybrid gets 40/38, or 4 mpg > better on the highway. The Civic gets 30/40 while the Civic Hybrid > gets 49/51, or 11 mpg better on the highway. The hybrids benefit > from the technology used to get better fuel mileage, even at highway > speeds.

The EPA ratings are not he same as actual fuel economy. The EPA highway test is still stuck at 55 mph as a maximum speed and still includes some stop and go portions. For the Civic Hybrid Consumer Reports' overall fuel mileage was an impressive 37 mpg. They recorded

26 in the city, 47 on the highway and got 45 mpg on their 150 mile trip. For the regular Civic the results were 31 overall, 22 city, 40 highway, and 37 on the 150 mile trip. For the Camry hybrid, CR recorded 34 mpg overall, 28 city, 41 highway, and 37 on the 150 mile trip. Pretty impressive for such a large car. The conventional 4 cylinder automatic Camry got 24 overall, 16 city, 36 highway, and 29 on the 150 mile trip.

To be clear - I have nothing against hybrids. For some applications, it appears to be a great technology. Because of the nature of Japanese traffic, I can see why hybrids were developed their first and best. Lots of crawling along at low speeds with a lot of stop and go driving. However, given the way hybrids work, why would you expect a Civic hybrid to get significantly better gas mileage than a regular Civic on a long trip down I-95 for instance (assuming it wasn't during one of the frequent I-95 and stop and go wreck aftermaths)? The Civic hybrid has a smaller engine than the standard Civic (1.3L vs. 1.8L), so this might allow for slightly better highway cruising economy. It also might affect performance. For the regular Civic (manual transmission, 1.8L engine), the 0-60 was 8.6 seconds. For the hybrid, it was 11.7 sec. So clearly, the cars don't have equivalent performance. Too bad we don't have a 1.3L non-hybrid Civic for comparison. As for the Camry, the hybrid Camry had a 8.4 sec 0-60 time. The conventional 4 cylinder automatic Camry only managed a 9.6 sec 0-60 (the V-6 automatic could do 7.1 sec 0-60s, and the fuel mileage was only about 1 mpg worse). It is pretty obvious to me that Toyota knows more about hybrids than Honda.

But the real question is, will you save enough on the cost of gasoline to pay for the difference in initial cost? The Civic hybrid is at least $3000 more expensive than the EX Sedan, if you assume the CR average fuel economy is a good estimate of the real world, the math works out as follows:

Gas used in 150,000 miles, and cost assuming $3 gasoline - Hybrid Civic - 4054 gallons / $12,162 Regular Civic (manual transmission) - 4,839 gallons / $14, 516

You can spend $3000+ to save less than $1400. Of course if you keep the car longer, or gas prices continue to rise, the hybrid might make more sense, but then there is the question of maintenance costs, extra financing spent for the more expensive car, etc. I don't have a good feel for these factors.

Likewise for the Camry -

Gas used in 150,000, and cost assuming $3 gasoline

Hybrid Camry - 4,412 gallons, $13,235 Regular Camry (4 cylinder automatic) - 6250 gallons, $18,750

So a hybrid Camry could save you $5,525 compared to as conventional Camry. Of course to save this, you are going to spend $6000 or more initially. And again there are all the questions about relative maintenance costs, long term gas cost, financing charges, etc.

It is difficult for me to see the hybrids as a cost effective solution for most drivers. Of course if you do a lot of in-town driving, plan to keep the car for a very long time (and drive a lot of miles), and assume the maintenance cost aren't much different, you might decide the hybrid makes a good choice.

One thing for sure, Toyota has the best hybrids at this time.

> So while the main advantage of hybrids is in stop and go or city > driving, they also improve highway mileage. Whether or not hybrids > or non-hybrids are a better choice depends on the mix of highway and > stop and go traffic (which, around LA and NYC, are the same thing > sometimes) and the other cars being considered. If your concern is > for the environment, also note that the hybrid systems also require > special batteries that have environmental costs when they are made, > just like everything else.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White
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14,517 - 12,162 = 2345, I think.

And cost to the environment for all the gas, the batteries, recycling the batteries, the extra motors and electronics and resale cost and how long the life of the car will be.

My point was that hybrids get better mileage on the highway than similar cars without a hybrid system.

So there is a definite benefit to use a hybrid system in cars that run mostly on highways. However, I don't know if this benefit is worth the extra money or the environmental cost.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Actually, the 'loop' for Highway ratings is 45 MPH. Nowhere near actual driving conditions (Unless you're in LA where it should be 8MPH...)

And in all actuality, EVERY Toyota I have ever owned has bested it's EPA Highway rating by at least 10%...COMBINED mileage. My Corolla GTS was rated at 32 MPG highway, I got 36 MPG combined. My Corolla SR-5 was rated at 28 MPG highway, I got 34 Combined. My Tercel was rated 33 MPG Highway, I got 45 MPG Combined. And I don't drive like an Old Man, either. A lot of trips in the Tercel were at least 70 MPH, and a few at 80. Likewaise, the GTS was always run on the highway at 70 MPH, even when the speed limit was

  1. Running at 55 MPH dropped the Combined MPG to 30 or less.
Reply to
Hachiroku

Isn't the point of all this to save the consumer money on gasoline while at the same time allowing them to have a comfortable ride in a car that will last some 7-12 years ?

If so, how does a Prius do?

Reply to
Bob Brown

Bob Brown wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@bbb.org:

You'll never keep a Prius (or any hybrid) long enough, or drive it enough, to recoup the extra cost of the purchase.

Any "savings" come only if you disregard the premium you paid to be "green".

Reply to
Tegger

"Tegger" ...

I, for one, fully intend to get a couple of hundred thousand miles at least out of the Prius. Tomes (189K on the Sienna so far)

Reply to
Tomes

Actually, I think you can recoup the cost after "x" years. Of course, the length of time it'd take would be rather largely influenced by the price of gas & if tax breaks are re-introduced. It would also have to do with how much you would ordinarily spend on a new car, and how long you tend to keep them. If you normally spend over $20K anyway, and keep it for severla years, then I don't see why you couldn't expect to make out on the purchase, $-wise. OTOH, if you normally spend $14-15K &/or change cars every few years, well then...

Cathy

Reply to
Cathy F.

The point of a hybrid drivetrain is to *reduce* fuel consumption while at the same time allowing the consumer to have a comfortable ride in a car that will last at least 7 to 12 years. Because of the higher cost of the hybrid drivetrain, the consumer doesn't really save money until the reduced fuel consumption has covered the premium paid for the hybrid drivetrain.

Reply to
Ray O

I would have NO interest in a car that only lasted 12 years.

....says the happy driver of a '92 Corolla Wagon......

Reply to
Scott in Florida

This depends on the particular car or truck and the difference in the fuel used as well as the price of fuel. For most hybrids, it seems like it takes about 300,000 km or 200,000 mi to pay back the cost, without tax breaks, in the US.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

You don't have to contend with salt on the roads & the rust factor. In the north, if you want to keep a car as long as its engine will last, body work needs to be done on an ongoing basis.

Cathy

Reply to
Cathy F.

Not trying to be mean but I aint going to pay a penny more for anything just because it's 'green'. Other people can do that, those people with extra money I guess.

NOT YOU!

I'm speaking in general.

Reply to
Bob Brown

200K miles on the Prius. What will your gasoline versus cost of vehicle be?

I'm asking if it makes any sense? People ONLY talk about MPG never discussing the premium for a Prius, or for that matter any 'new' car.

With interest, most people have no clue what the final price was on their new , now 5 years old, car.

0% interest or $1000 cash back: Most young, see:dumb, people see that $1,000 and grab it. Low interest would save you more than $1,000. AND if you need $1,000 that bad what in the hell are you doing buying a 'new' car?

Do you want an ounce of gold or a pound of aluminum? Gee, wonder which one the 20s crowd would pick...

Reply to
Bob Brown

Wouldn't that take 300,000 - 500,000 miles?

I'd love to see an article on the person who is first with a 100k prius. I'd also like a copy of his credit card/other accounts to see if he made any 'repairs' during that time.

I heard someone say 200K miles was the payoff point on the Prius, but what if like a lot of people you never make it to 200K miles?

So cars are unlucky, even if they "average" 200K miles of life. Every car of that model is not going to get 200K miles even with proper care.

If I offered a fund where you give me $5K per year for a return of $2 Million in 30 years? Sounds good. Ok, what if I said "You can't touch it before 30 years even if you were willing to take a penalty"?

I'd probably keep the money of 90% of the people.

Reply to
Bob Brown

I seriously doubt the 'average' lifespan of a Prius will end up being

12 years. I said average. I also doubt the 'average' life will be 200K miles, yes I said average.

Everyone has that 'story' of this 'car' that gets 477k miles because they did the right things and took proper care unlike those 'other people'.

1 out of 100 maybe, you and someone else but the others out here aren't going to get those years or miles out of a car.

Which was my point, but you can all tell the fish stories.

Reply to
Bob Brown

No, not really. It is difficult to determine the "break even" point on a Prius because there is no conventionally powered version of the car. My guess is that the break-even point on a Prius vs. a 4 cylinder Camry is around 75,000 miles with gas at $3.00 per gallon. The 2 biggest variables are fuel cost and driving conditions.

There are quite a few Prius with well over 100,000 miles, most notably in Taxi service in NYC. The article I read said that there were no repairs other than normal maintenance.

100,000 miles used to be considered the average life of a passenger vehicle, but 200,000 is very common now.
Reply to
Ray O

Bob Brown wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@bbb.org:

If it costs more, it's not "green".

Being "green" means reducing the use of ALL resources, not just the ones you WANT to pay attention to.

Reply to
Tegger

Unfortunately, I have not seen any accounting of the use of other resources and the environmental costs of those resources that are used by hybrids.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

"Jeff" wrote in news:2zHXh.10279$Fs6.2646@trnddc03:

The fact that the cars are expensive to buy (and that Toyota only breaks even on them if they disregard development costs) tells you that hybrids are wasteful of resources.

If a thing is relatively expensive, this can only mean one of two things:

1) profit margins are high, or 2) a tremendous amount of energy is going into the thing.
Reply to
Tegger

Maybe not. There are definitely places where a hybrid makes a lot of sense. It seems to me that any driving pattern that involves a lot of stop and go driving is potentially a good place for a hybrid. When we were in Victoria, BC two years ago, I was impressed that many of the taxis were Toyota Priuses. I don't think taxi companies would buy vehicles that were not economically attractive.

I wonder if there is an application for true diesel/electric or gas/electric vehicle that operates more like modern locomotives. It seems to me that once you buy into including a generator and motor set in a car, you might as well go one step further and eliminate the conventional drive train. You could still include batteries to provide "surge" power for qucik acceleration.

Don't forget government policies as an influence. Do you think hybrids would have gotten a foothold in the US if it wasn't for the early tax rebates and CAFE rules? The Prius must have a significant positive impact on Toyota's CAFE numbers.

And if people always bought cars for strictly sensible reasons, there would be no Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Aura, Infiniti, etc....

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

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