Re: P0420 code and PA state inspection

So I understand what you are trying to say, it looks like you are basing your recommendation on the premise that (A) the cat is reliable and likely to be good and (B) that a bad O2 sensor will give a false P0420 or P0430.

Regarding (A), one of the potential sources of catalyst contamination I have I have not mentioned before is the particulates in the exhaust stream. If you wipe the inside of the tailpipe with a white rag, it will come out black with soot. While most of this partiulate matter gets burned off in the catalytic converter, some of it does not and the catalyst eventually becomes coated with the particulate. Getting the exhaust good and hot will delay the onset of this condition, but not everyone drives the car hard enough to do this. If the catalyst is coated with particuclate matter, it cannot act on the exhaust gas, and the cat loses effectiveness and the ECU will put up a P0420 or P0430 code. A contaminated catalytic converter is not as uncommon as you think.

Regarding (B), there are 4 possible scenarios. For these 4 scenarios, when we say the downstream #2 O2 sensor is "bad," we will assume that it is not bad enough to give its own DTC and is operating marginally or the sensor head is contaminated. If the cat is bad, the gas will come out of the cat in the same condition it went in, so #2 sensor sees the same signal as #1 sensor and if they are working correctly, they will send the same signal to the ECU. The ECU will set DTC P0420 or P0430 if it detects the same fluctuating signal from sensor #2 as it is getting from sensor #1 over 2 trip cycles. The ECU will not set a code if the signal from sensor #2 is flat.

1) If the cat is good and #2 O2 sensor is good, #2 sensor signal is pretty flat and the ECU does not set a trouble code. 2) If, as you assert, the cat is good and #2 sensor is bad or marginal, then the sensor signal would be pretty flat - so to the ECU, the signal in Scenario 2) looks the same as the signal in Scenario 1) so the ECU would not set a trouble code 3) If the cat is bad and #2 sensor is good, then the signal from the O2 sensor starts fluctuating and the ECU sets DTC P0420. 4) If the cat is bad and #2 sensor is bad, the signal would be flat and the ECU would not set a trouble code.

The ECU has to see activity from sensor #2 to set P0420 or P0430, and the only scenario wher it would see activity is Scenario 3.

I agree that the cat is more reliable than an O2 sensor, but you are totally missing the conditions necessary to set DTC P0420 or P0430.

There has to be a signal from #2 sensor to set those trouble codes, and a bad sensor will not send a signal, so a bad sensor cannot set those codes.

Also, although the cat is more reliable than the sensor, they will lose effectiveness over time and can eventually go bad.

My experience is a little less limited. When I have encountered P0420, the cat was bad.

As I have mentioned several times, a contaminated cat will not cause driveability problems. I do not know where you got that idea, but it is totally incorrect.

You know what happens when you make assumptions! ;-)

Reply to
Ray O
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Update -

I finally have the both O2 sensors and Cat converter replaced at the exhaust shop and was told that CAT converter is indeed clogged and is bad. So Ray is right, CAT converter indeed can go bad. Ray, I have following questions regarding to the bad gas.

1) I have never replaced the fuel filter on my Corolla with 155K miles on it, should it be replaced ASAP? Is it going to shorten the lifetime of CAT converter? 2) how you define bad gas and how to prevent it? Or what other factors are going to affect the CAT converter?

Since I intend to look for cheap gas(you know the gas price nowadays), not sure whether I really pumped some bad gas or not. Thx.

Ray O wrote:

Reply to
wenmang

Although I am not right 100% of the time, I do have more success than failure when it comes to fixing cars. ;-)

The fuel filter does not have any effect on the life of the catalytic converter. I believe that the fuel filter is considered a "lifetime" item and does not need replacement unles it is so clogged that it is causing driveability problems. I have never seen an official definition of "lifetime" so although you do not have to change it ASAP, if it were my car, I would consider changing it in the near to mid future.

I would define "bad gas" as gas that is contaminated. Most of the time, the contaminant is either water that has seeped into a gas station's underground tank or dirt and debris that has somehow gotten into the fuel, either at the gas station or from a rusty vehicle fuel tank. I do not believe that bad gas will have an effect on the life of the catalytic converter although it will affect the vehicle preformance and driveability.

IMO, you are less likely to get a tank of bad gas if you purchase gas from a place that sells a large volume and so there is less likelihood that a lot of water has accumulated in their tank.

If you pumped some bad gas, you are more likely to experience drivability problems than a ruined cat.

IMO, the things that affect cat life are: Driving very gently so that the cat doesn't get very hot Frequent short trips so the cat doesn't get very hot and the computer doesn't go to closed loop mode Aftermarket ignition parts like spark plugs and ignition wires that produce a less than optimal spark. The quality of the cat.

Reply to
Ray O

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