Sort of OT: JD Power vs. Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports and JD Power both released reliability reports in 2005, and their results were very different. Here is a quote from the one from Consumer Reports:

April 2005 U.S. autos narrow the gap

Our latest survey of subscribers' experiences with their cars shows that the 2004 Hyundai Sonata is the single most reliable vehicle. The Nissan Quest and Lincoln Navigator are the least reliable 2004 models. Our survey also shows that improvement in the reliability of U.S. vehicles was no fluke. American cars and trucks continue to edge closer to Japanese and Korean makes. European vehicles continue to be among the least reliable overall.

Here are highlights from this year's survey focusing on the 2004 model year:

. The Hyundai Sonata had only 2 problems per 100 vehicles (we call this figure the problem rate). That showing further establishes Hyundai's remarkable turnaround from one of the least reliable brands to one of the best.

. The most reliable 2004 brand overall is now Subaru, which averages 8 problems per 100. Honda, long a reliability leader, averaged 9 problems per 100.

. Japanese and Korean automakers once again produced the most trouble-free vehicles, with an overall problem rate of 12 per 100 for the 2004 model year. That rate has not changed in the past three years.

. Overall, Asian automakers are likely to produce the most reliable 2005 cars as well; see the chart below.

. DaimlerChrysler, Ford, and General Motors inched a little closer to Asian automakers with an overall problem rate of 17 per 100. Last year U.S. automakers had a combined problem rate of 18 per 100.

So according to CR, Subaru is at the top of the list, with Honda right on their tail.

However, J.D. Power paints a very different picture. Their top ten most reliable vehicle brands, with the average number of problems reported per

100 vehicles:

Lexus 139 Porsche 149 Lincoln 151 Buick 163 Cadillac 175 Infiniti 178 Toyota 194 Mercury 195 Honda 201 Acura 203

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So in the top ten, American brands Lincoln, Buick and Cadillac take third, fourth and fifth placed for reliability, while Toyota takes seventh and Honda takes ninth. Subaru is well below average on the list.

Why so different? Well, to make sure I'm not comparing apples to oranges, I would have to know the sizes and demographics of each company's surveys, how far beck they went, whether or not repair incidents were weighted for cost, etc. Fir example, Consumer Reports surveyed owners of new cars--2004 models, while JD Power surveyed owners of slightly older 2002 models.

It's a catch-22. In order to get long-term reliability results, you have to survey owners of older cars--but the older the model, the less similar it is likely to be to newer models and the less statistically significant the results are.

I'd like to see CR do overall data releases for 2002 models as well. Otherwise my next car might be a Lincoln or Buick! (I can't afford a Lexus yet.)

Can anyone more familiar with all this shed some light for me please?

Reply to
Ernie Sty
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If you look at the ratings in percentages, as one really should as opposed to a list, it quickly becomes apparent that ALL have a failure rate of around 2%. That means ALL manufactures are building good quality, reliable vehicles, today.

Over the last five to ten years or so that is exactly what we have been seeing in the thousands of vehicles we service, of all brands, in our fleet service business. Do the proper preventive maintenance and they will all last a long time

Why some will want to spend 20% to 30% more to buy a particular brand hoping the ONE they buy will be one of the 98% that don't have any problems, and not one of the 2% that do, makes no sense to me. Obviously the ONE you buy has a much better probability of being on the 98%, no mater what brand is on the hood.

When I am asked which is the best buy, I to tell folks to drive and price all these that suits their needs. Get a 'total drive home price' for each, not simply a selling price, then buy the ONE that best suits their budget. A total drive home price includes the selling price as well as trade allowance, required' dealer installed options and interest amount. The average dealers make more profit per vehicle after the 'sale' in the F&I office than on the sales floor. As for me personally I had owned several Lexus V8s. When I was ready to buy another in the spring of 1999 the dealer wanted me to pay well over MSRP for the '99 LS I wanted. I walked out and ended up down the street at a FLM dealership.. A short drive and an hour later I owed a new at the time 2000 V8 Lincoln LS AND a

1999 Mustang GT convertible, for around the same money the Lexus dealer wanted. Today I have a 2005 Lincoln LS and 2005 Mustang GT convertible and never any problems with any of them.

The J D Powers survey you quoted was their durability survey. They do an initial quality survey of owners of current models after 90 days of ownership, as well

The most important survey is the sales totals because the sales total show when actual buyer are willing to put their money where then mouth is, as they say.. The Camry is the number one selling mid size car for a reason. The Ford F150 is the best selling truck as well as the best selling vehicle car or truck, for a reason.

Total sales per manufacture reflects what buys really think is the best place to spend their money as well.

GM is numbed one, Ford number two, Chrysler number three, Toyota number four and Honda is number five....for a reason

mike hunt

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Reply to
DustyRhoades

Make sure you aren't comparing initial quality in the JD Power data to the durability data that consumers reports tallies. JDP also does 3 and 6 year durability data collection so you've got to make sure you have apples to apples there. Some cars arrive pretty well screwed together when new but then go to pieces pretty fast with a little use over a few years and thousands of miles. Personally I place a lot more importance on the long-term durability performance than the initial quality ratings.

Reply to
Jeff Bertrand

They do, in every April's auto issue. This year's issue has reliability data for 1997-2004.

Go to your local library or get a subscription.

Reply to
Travis Jordan

Or spend six dollars a month for it online:

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Reply to
Buck Frobisher

From what I understand, Consumer Reports only focuses on issues, while JDpowers includes someone going to the dealer to show him how to use the radio. So basically any trips vs issues, like windows not working, tranny slipping, etc.

It comes down to this: Buy brand X and you will spend less time at the dealer - JD Power Buy brand X and you will have less mechanical issues - CR '

Reply to
Dan J.S.

I don't follow you at all. These ratings are the average number of problems per 100 vehicles. That means they *are* in percentages, and NONE of them are around 2%. What is it you're trying to say? Where did you come up with the 2% figure?

I met and spoke with a mechanic who started his own shop decades ago and had built it up into a huge garage with master mechanics working for him. His garage was very popular with the avionics engineers at nearby Honeywell, that says something to me, because these guys were mechanically pretty damned savvy. I asked the guy, "If I wanted to buy a car that's less likely to need repairs and will last a long time, what should I buy?" Immediately he answered "Honda, Mazda or Toyota."

This was back about 8 or 9 years ago, so his answer might be different today. FWIW.

Reply to
Ernie Sty

I know they have reliability *data*, but it's model-specific and isn't displayed in the format I was talking about, which was in the part of my post that you clipped out. I am looking for *overall* data, gathered this year on autos made in 2002.

Reply to
Ernie Sty

I already have CR online. They do not have what I was referring to. They do have model-specific data which is VERY useful, but I was looking for data for various makes, gathered this year from 2002 (or earlier) models.

Reply to
Ernie Sty

That's good information. Also, I think I remember reading that CR weights repairs according to cost, so having a drivetrain replaced would count differently than having a loose radio knob fixed. If I remember correctly, then:

Buy brand X and you will spend less time at the dealer - JD Power Buy brand X and you will spend less money repairing the car - CR

Reply to
Ernie Sty

You remember wrong. The CR survey asks readers to report on serious problems defined as significant down time or expensive.

Reply to
Art

I have been reading the reliability ratings in the Consumer Reports' issue that was brought up in this thread. Make what you want of CR's credibility (I tend to take their word over JD Power's), but they say that most if not all Honda and Toyota models remain very reliable. So it is safe to say that, as a whole, Toyota and Honda remain two of the most reliable brands.

Unfortunately, Mazda's reliability has really gone downhill in recent years, presumably because of Ford's influence. The same goes with Volvo.

Reply to
High Tech Misfit

I completely agree with you there. Initial quality is deceptive because most of the assembly lines are now automated, which make it much more consistent with design specs. Quality should then be considered for long-term. Toyota still ranks the best when it comes to that.

Reply to
Viperkiller

As you may already have noticed, they tend to stay model-specific rather than brand. I agree with this attitude, since models within a brand can have wildly different service histories.

What is it you're doing, a market study for your work? Doesn't sound like you're buying a car, since one doesn't "buy a make", you buy a particular model.

Reply to
Buck Frobisher

Can we assume your degree is not in Mathematics? ;)

mike hunt

Ernie Sty wrote:

Reply to
BenDover

snipped-for-privacy@nunya.net (Viperkiller) wrote;

How many people still buy a car thinking that they'll own it in 10 years? I think what most people look at nowadays is resale value, which is definitely based on the longevity with which you speak. But society as a whole seems to like buying new cars every few years. The auto companies have learned a new word...Mar-ket-ing.

Reply to
ravelation

Fleets look at the total cost of acquiring, insuring, maintaining, repairing and replacing their vehicles which are 'tools' they use in their business just like a lathe or and desk. We service thousands of vehicles monthly in our shops. We keep detailed maintenance records for the fleets. I can assure you that ALL manufactures are building good dependable vehicles, when given the proper preventive maintenance. NO manufacture stands out as remarkable among them. Your odds of getting one of the bad ones that they all build is no greater among brands. Fleet vehicles, because of federal corporate income tax depreciation laws, are generally kept in service for five years or 300K WOF.

The only real difference we see among them today is style and price. Buy the one that best suits your needs and budget and you are just as like to get one of the good ones. You do not need to spend thousands more to buy one you think may be better because it is made by a particular manufacture. Go to any dealership and look at all the vehicles sitting around without and engine or tranny, if you think brand 'Y' does not breakdown just like brand 'X' on occasion.. ;)

mike hunt

Ernie Sty wrote:

I am looking for *overall* data, gathered this

Reply to
BenDover

All right then, let's go a realistic figure. Loans are now 5-6 years; a lot of people trade in at 4 (which is about when you'll get the most back, considering the condition of the car and the amount left on the loan) so let's go out 4 years and see what's what. I agree, the "Initial Quality" serveys are worthless; even a Chevy SHOULD be able to pass one of these... ;)

Reply to
HachiRoku

Mike,

if 8 of every hundred vehicles fail, that's a failure rate of 8%. Is that so hard a concept for you?

Reply to
Ernie Sty

So, all vehicles are equal in terms of reliability and all the reliability reports are wrong or are skewed because certain make or model owners are much more likely to perform vehicle maintenance? Sorry, not buying it.

Reply to
Ernie Sty

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