toyota dealer adding $650 TAD to KBB listed dealer invoice price (BS?)

Maybe, but think of this:

If _none_ of them will sell you the car for a lower price, does it matter?

I bought my second Toyota in 1983. It as a new Camry and I was in Arizona. The dealer wanted to charge me for "high altitude jets." The Camry was fuel injected. jor

Check the area dealers thru their Internet sales dept, it's a totally different experience. Ask for what you want and an out the door price.

I have to agree - they seem to have a minimum profit point already decided on, and that's that. The dealer /does/ have to make some money on the deal, your job is to make sure they don't get greedy. ;-)

You might try calling dealers a bit farther away and see if they want to deal any harder, because their overhead is lower. I ended up buying at the other end of the state, and saved myself about $6K in the process. In Los Angeles it was "the hot car" selling ADM over sticker, in San Francisco they couldn't give them away.

Mook: It looks like you're in Texas, and IIRC that's Southwest Toyota Distributing territory. Try a state or two over where they deal with TMS-USA directly, that might make all the difference.

(Road Trip to pick up the car, or a one-way plane/bus ticket there and drive the new car home.)

I've heard that SWTD "packs" many of the vehicles they sell at the port with the same kind of useless options dealers usually add, like paint treatments and cheap alarm systems, to add to their profits. That could be where part of that $450 is going.

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EVERY manufactures invoice includes the dealers portion of the nation advertising that the manufacture asses to the dealer.

When buying a vehicle, any brand, ask for a total delivered price, not just a selling price, of the one you are interested in purchasing. Tell the dealer you will not agree to any deal that includes anything other than the selling price, less trade if any, interest if financing, and taxes and licensing fees, WBMA. The only way to compare prices among dealers, or brands is by the total delivered price, period.

Interest and retention rates alone can result in a total price difference of a thousand dollars or more on the SAME purchase price, from dealer to dealer or brand to brand, on a four year contract.

mike hunt

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

Dealers who are members of the local Toyota Dealers Advertising Association pay a TDA fee for every vehicle. The TDA shows up on their invoice but not on the Monroney Label. The Association uses the fees for local advertising.

This is splitting hairs, but for Toyota, each region (called zones by GM and Ford) has its own dealer advertising association and the advertising fees are actually asssesed by the association, not the manufacturer. The manufacturer merely collects the fees and turns it over to the association.

Great advice! Avoid "dealer prep" because dealers are reimbursed for this by the manufacturer. Some dealers charge a documentation or "doc" fee to handle all the paperwork. IMO, administrative support is dealer overhead and should come out of the dealer's profits, not the customer's pocket. That would be like a restaurant charging you to take a reservation and figure out the bill. I wouldn't have a problem paying the dealer a nominal fee if they send someone over to the state licensing facility if I didn't want to make the run myself.

Mike, what do you mean by "retention rate?" Is that flooring? Residual?

I "toyed" with the GM "buy at what GM employee's pay" pricing on an envoy, not that I'd buy one, yep SUB market and GM is hurting but they took a chunk off MSRP..... (over $7000 on 33,000)

But finding a Toyota dealer to do it is something else. But it does show there is a pretty good margin hidden in the prices.

still feebly resisting wife's want of a new Avalon Limited Ron

I. E. Let's say GMAC etc. retention is 3.9% on a new car, four year 4.9%, non incentive, non recourse contract. The dealer charges you 5.9%. That 2% is paid to the dealer in his quarterly alone with the holdback. He gets to keep that, even if one prepays or even defaults on the loan. Don't forget you are paying interest on every add-on the dealer can put into the deal, as well

That is just one of the reason I always suggest one drive and get a total drive home price, on all of those brands and models that suits their needs and buy the one that best suits their budget. ALL manufactures today are building good vehicles. Do not get hung up on brands for which dealers are taking you for a sucker. No mater where a model or brand falls in any particular survey, the odds of getting one of their bad ones is less than 1% so why not get the lowest drive home price possible? Particularly when the savings can easily be 30% or 40% of the monthly payment between deals.

mike hunt

Ray O wrote:

One would think the Land Cruiser would be the more comparable vehicle to an Envoy, not the Avalon.. Perhaps you should consider the Buick model that replaced the LeSabre, that you could buy for at least $12,000 less than the Avalon? That $12,000 will buy all your gas and pay for you insurance for at least four years ;)

mike hunt

r>

I would think that Highlander is closer to an Envoy in price, size, and performance than a Land Cruiser.

According to Buick's web site, the LeSabre is still available, the Lucerne will be available in the fall of 2005.

If you compare the base MSRP of the 2005 LeSabre to the base MSRP of the

2005 Avalon, there certainly is no $12,000 difference. The LeSabre Custom is 27,270; the Limited is 32,930, and the Celebration Edition is 34,130.

The Avalon XL is 26,350, or $920 less than the base LeSabre; the XLS is $30,80, or 2,130 less than the middle grade LeSabre; The Avalon Limited is 33,540, or $590 less than the top grade LeSabre.

I realize that those price differences are MSRP only and that the out-the-door price of the popular Avalon is much closer to its MSRP than the deeply discounted LeSabre. I did not compare content so I don't know if one vehicle offers more content than the other.

In my mind, GM announcing the "employee purchase" pricing discount across the board is tantamount to them announcing that their prices were too high across the board for the demand for their products. With the LeSabre soon to be replaced, one could probably acquire one for less than an Avalon, but I doubt if it would be $12,000 less. If acquisition cost is the most important consideration when purchasing a vehicle, then there are some good deals to be had at a GM dealer right now. If you consider other factors, then the choice is not as clear...

Last GM product I had was a 96 Jimmy.

Never again.

Just "priced" what their so called discount is and its pretty steep.

As far as Avalon color, Scott, probably be a light one. Gets HOT here in Redding, Ca... Since she is no longer driving in her job (Home Care RN) her 02 Avalon has only 44 k miles on it and since it is garaged, looks new, leather and fairly young Michelins. Maybe she will wait for 06's? I think if she saw a Titanium or metallic gray limited I'd be sunk...

Ron

Got it. I had never heard a Toyota dealer refer to the difference between his cost and what he charged the customer as retention. The just called it "margin on paper".

Because I used to work for Toyota, you incorrectly assume that I recommend only Toyota products. There are many reasons why people choose one brand or model over another, and I happen to agree with you that the differences in reliability of the top 5 or 7 automakers in the world have pretty much disappeared, but not entirely.

If cost is a major consideration and someone replaces the car every 3 years, then I recommend Ford products because they offer a reasonable blend of price, content, and reliability. For someone who replaces cars every 3 or 4 years, my advice is the same as yours - drive, price, and compare. IMO, if someone keeps a car 5 to 15 years, then Toyota's slight edge in quality and reliability start to justify the higher initial acquisition cost although I still tell people drive, price, and compare.

Regardless of the factors you and I consider when choosing a car, there are millions of people who consider other reasons for buying a car. I once dated a girl who bought a Gremlin because it was the only car that came in her favorite shade of purple. People purchase hybrids because they want to be seen as environmentally friendly, even though the hybrid premium negates any gas cost savings. Why would someone pay $70k for a Phaeton that looks like a Passat? Why do people pay money for conestoga wagon wheels? Why buy a normally aspirated 911 when a Corvette could run it into the ground? Luckily, people do consider other factors, otherwise, we wouldn't have many choices in cars and everyone would be driving the same thing - boring!

You better go out and do some actual price comparisons it that is what you believe. There is only one way to compare vehicles and that is size and equipment. Once you have those comparisons, then you can compare the total drive home price, MSRP is immaterial. With all of the good vehicles available on the market today nobody, in their right mind, pays anywhere close to MSRP and certainly not more than MSRP. When you compare the total drive home price between the new vehicles of the same size with the same equipment, the Buick and several others can indeed be driven home for $12,000 less than an Avalon. My one son recently purchased a brand new, fully loaded 2005 vehicle that is even larger than the Avalon, with a bigger engine, for a total drive home price of less than 20K. ;)

mike hunt

Ray O wrote:

Personally I could not care less where people choose to spend their money.

In the first place from what we see in our business servicing thousand of vehicles, the statement that Toyotas will last longer on average than other brands before they need to be repaired is a myth. The premature failure rate among all brands is around the same, less than 1%. Now that Toyota is selling cars in the US in the millions, like GM and Ford, rather than in the hundreds of thousands more of their bad ones are showing up as well.

Secondly you are forgetting to factor into the equation the extraordinary higher cost of keeping a Toyota in repair when it does need to be repaired. How many people with an old $3,000 Lexus are going to spend $1,500 plus $100 an our labor cost for a power steering pump? That is one reason one virtually never see a Toyota at an old car show. LOL

mike hunt

Ray O wrote:

Take if from a guy who has been married to his second wife for over 50 years. Buy your wife whatever she wants. You can not AFFORD to do otherwise. LOL

mike hunt

r>

For someone who could care less, you sure are a lot more vociferous than me on making vehicle purchase recommendations! You can probably count on 1 hand the # of times I have actually recommended that someone buy brand X over brand Y.

A lot of interesting reading but still no definitive answer.

The price of the 2005 tacoma double cab with SR5#8 and nightvision mirror is $23300 in KBB.com. best offer I have for it so far is 23900...600 over invoice. not bad.

That is more than I. Actually I have never recommend someone buy any brand or model. At the most I have only suggested they look at and price a particular model of the same type before they buy any vehicle.

mike hunt

Ray O wrote:

thousand of vehicles, the statement that Toyotas will last longer on average than other brands before they need to be repaired is a myth. The premature failure rate among all brands is around the same, less than 1%. Now that Toyota is selling cars in the US in the millions, like GM and Ford, rather than in the hundreds of thousands more of their bad ones are showing up as well.

extraordinary higher cost of keeping a Toyota in repair when it does need to be repaired. How many people with an old $3,000 Lexus are going to spend $1,500 plus $100 an our labor cost for a power steering pump? That is one reason one virtually never see a Toyota at an old car show. LOL

actually recommended that someone buy brand > X over brand Y.