Toyota/Honda vs American

Good description in a nutshell!

You are entitled to believe whatever you wish. I chose to disagree with your opinion however, because of my own experiences over the years. That is after all what we are expressing here, opinions. I happen to own a 1971 Pinto, that I purchased new in

1970. It has lasted for a lot more than you perceived 100K. There is currently 298,000 miles on the clock and all original. The only repairs have been s clutch at 210K and a Carbon and valve job in February. I own a half dozen old cars that I take to old cars shows. I see old cars for the US, England, Germany, even Italy but I have never seen any Japanese cars from the seventies at any of those shows let alone one with the 150K you believe they will exclusively achieve. All manufactures build some on occasion that are not up to their build standards for the class in which they compete, that is why the all have a warranty. From what we see in our fleet service business, that services nearly every brand on the market, is that ANY brand on the market today will easily run 200K and more if properly serviced. That is not an opinion but a fact and we have the records to support that conclusion. The only real difference we see in todays vehicles is style and price, period. I prefer a particular style of vehicle and that is RWD and V8 powered. I want to buy those that will cost me the least amount of money to replace every two years. That is my choice, others may chose differently and that is their privilege as well.

mike hunt

"D.D. Palmer" wrote:

Actually, you claim to have facts but they are merely antidotes. My numbers....actual transaction prices of new and used cars...is more FACTUAL. Those FACTS show that Japanese cars are priced to go about 50% longer than American cars. You may argue that the Japanese cars DON'T ACTUALLY go 50% more, and you MAY (but probably are not) be right. But my FACT, which is undisputable, is that the Japanese cars, both new and used, command a premium suggesting 50% longer miles per car. And I am talking about actual transaction-after-rebates prices. True, Taurus and Camry might have similar window stickers, but the only way to move the Taurus is to cut the price using rebates while Camry generally can be sold out at window sticker. Same for used....a 3 year old Taurus will lose 60% of it's value while a Camry will lose 35% (just guesses on THOSE numbers but you get my point).

And regardless of what you say, the Pinto was just plain garbage. OK, you may have a rare, exceptional creampuff, but in the real world it was garbage. And, OK, the early 1970's Toyotas and CERTAINLY the early Hondas were junk too. And the Detroit Iron of that era, except for Pinto, Vega and Gremlin, was indeed generally good. But let's get off the ancient history here. Modern cars, priced by FACTUAL STATISTICS ACCORDING TO WHAT PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY, show the Japanese cars are priced to go about 150,000 miles while Detroit (or Mexican or Canadian) metal is only priced for 100,000 miles. If you honestly believe you can get the same mileage out of Detroit as you can out of Japan with no additional operating costs, then Detroit is the better deal for you. The market of millions and millions of vehicles suggests that the average American has learned otherwise.

You mean, like just about any Ford from 1976-1982?

This goes beyond how many miles you can put on a car; like how well it goes while putting them on. I have had to do very, very little with my Toyotas to get them to 200,000 miles. One needed a water pump, one needed an alternator and a fuel pump. The latter still has the original clutch at

260,000 with teaching 2 wives and a daughter how to drive a stick. Sure, I have seen people get Fords to 250,000, but with a LOT of repairs. I'm still on the original ball joints in that second Corolla.

And part of the reason you don't see older Toys at auto shows is that the cognizenti don't recognize them. They were good, cheap dependable transportation, nothing more. IMHO, I would rather go to a show where there were a bunch of nice old Corollas, Corona MKII's, Celicas and 510's than the usual Chevys and Fords I grew up with.

MSRP is nonsense. What you pay is what you pay. This is exactly like those late night ads: "Plus if you act, now, we'll add in this electric cheese straightener (a $50 value!) for no extra charge..."

I find it irksome that GM and Ford price their cars with a hugely inlfated MSRP in order to try to suggest that their cars are somehow in the league of the others, despite their actual 3-4K lower selling price.

This is only one car and we have to assume what you said is the complete truth. Even so, there are documented cases of two Volvo P1800s with over

1,500,000 miles (slightly more than your 298,000 miles). I can keep a car running in perfect mechanical condition while letting the interior and paint show its appropriate age - in others words the car looks like a POS but still runs. Does this describe your 1971 Pinto? These P1800s have had mechanical and interior/paint work - but they look like they were just driven off the showroom floor.

I couldn't agree more with you on this point.

The only real difference we

Exactly. The MSRP is just a starting point...a "wish" price. In the end Detroit has to gimmick and rebate those prices down to what will move the metal. So a Camry and a Taurus with similar equipment will ACTUALLY SELL for thousands of dollars different (Taurus less) because of the perceived "less miles-per-car" thing with the Ford. And this extends into the used car market as well. A Taurus with 100,000 miles is worth just a minimal "salvage" amount while a Camry is worth much more. Because the market figures the Taurus is "shot" at 100,000 mi...or is an expensive repair gamble at best. While the Camry is a good bet to get to 150,000 miles by average drivers with average maintenance and without extraordinary repairs.

Compare a GM truck with a Tacoma or Tundra, or even a Titan or Frontier, as I recently did.

GM had every rebate, financing incentive, "Smart Buy", 24 hour test drive, "Hot Button", you name it, on a similarly MSRP'd truck. This is done because they HAVE TO.

I bought the Tacoma with a slight discount ($25,500 on a sticker of $27,4-something as a cash buyer with no trade) from Toyota's MSRP, and a

6 week wait for the truck to arrive, as that's as good as it got with my local dealers. One dealer stated "the price is on it". I paid more for a Tacoma, because under close inspection the Colorado / Canyon wasn't even in the same league. Driving them made the difference even wider. I would have paid a similar price for the Frontier if I couldn't get the Tacoma.

The Toyota salespeople actually let me leave the dealerships during negotiations without even taking my phone number. I wasn't used to that. Typically, every time you leave the price gets better, to the final price. Negotiating spanned two weeks and involved three dealerships.

I typically keep vehicles cradle to grave. The GM product certainly seemed like that grave was a lot closer.

It is your money but for what you paid for a mid size truck you could have purchased a REAL truck, a full size F150 LOL

mike hunt

B a r r y wrote:

Right. But this is a Toyota NewsGroup. You know what makes it a Toyota NG? Most of us are Toyota Owners.

There are a couple Ford NewsGroups available. You are cordially invited to go talk about Fords there, if you wish...

I had an 1800ES w/125,000 (just before I flipped it...OVER that is...) all I did was clean it. It did need a LOT of repair! But all I did to keep it looking good was wash, wax and clean the interior. If I hadn't put it on the roof I may still well be driving it...

That is fine if your goal is to spend more to buy your new car, to help the dealer and manufacture earn more money. I prefer to spend less to get a new car every two years, not more

Glad you mentioned the Taurus. A two year old top of the line V6 Taurus actually returns MORE of it actual drive home price than a similar V6 Camry. Sure the Camry has a higher resale value than the Taurus, of about $4,000 according to NADA, but the Camry cost $6,000 more to drive home when new so you lost $2,000. When you trade Taurus on Taurus you save on the next one as well ;)

mike hunt

"D.D. Palmer" wrote:

I am talking about actual

You may prefer to but that is not ever going to happen. I have never seen ANY of those cars at old cars shows let alone a chance you will ever see all of them LOL

mike hunt

hachiroku wrote:

Less washing and waxing is required if, as they used to say in CB land, you keep the shiny side up and the dirty side down. Was it just the driver's seat that needed cleaning or were there passengers riding at the time?

Old Corollas, Carinas, Coronas, Celicas, HiLux pickups, and Land Cruisers do pop up at collector events in California, only a matter of time before they start showing up at California shows.

I cannot imagine that a 2 year old Taurus or similar brings nearly the % as a 2 year old Hon/Toy.

Better hurry up they're 30 to 35 years old already. Most start appearing ten years sooner, when the part supply get slimmer ;)

mike hunt

Ray O wrote:

Yeah, I had a friend riding with me. The previous owner, a friend of mine, had also had an accident with the car, long before i met him. Damn thing liked to go for the driver! Crushed the left-hand side right down to the steering wheel! Luckily, Volvo builds roll bars into their cars...

And that IS a real shame, isn't it? these were the cars that started ALL manufacturers on a road to downsizing. After all, what was your Pinto competing with? An Impala? What was the Chevette aimed at? A Cadillac? The small Jap imports in the 70's and 80's had a LOT to do with shaping the future of the car industry. That ought to be recognized by more than corporate bean-counters...