Doing maintenance on a 14 year old 4-runner has made me realize that the Japanese never considered the repair mechanic when designing it. Simple parts like the fuel filter and starter motor are in the most inaccessible places. Compared to the Chevrolets I've owned, a '59 Wagon and '73 Impala, this '94 suks.
Things are packed in a little tighter nowadays. You're comparing apples to letter openers.
Not really. I did work on a Olds Firenza and a Pontiac Sunbird, both sub-compact GM J-cars. I never had the same kind of trouble. Take for example lubricating the front end. To do the Toyota right, you probably have to pull the knuckle out. The last car I worked on was a '95 Buick Century Wagon with a similar engine (3.0 V-6) and carry capacity. It was no nightmare like this SUV is.
Wasn't there an old Firebird or Camaro which required lifting the motor a few inches to get to one spark plug? Pinto wagons had a plastic stick shift retaining ring which used to melt due to the proximity of the exhaust pipe. To repair that mess, you had to lift the console. To lift the console, you had to remove the carpet. To remove the carpet, you had to remove the front seats, all molding and internal trim panels.
VW Rabbit: To install certain not-especially-large radios, you had to drop the stearing column. Mid 70s Cadillacs: To replace the front power antenna, you had to remove the wheel well cover. By the time the antenna went bad, the holes in the fender were rusted, so removing the wheel well cover would shatter what was left of those holes.
Every car brand has its suicide-inducing mechanical horrors. You just haven't seen them. You've only worked on the cars you've worked on.
Right, I have worked on popular models that probably were designed with the DIY mechanic in mind. So much hype goes out about Toyota's, but it's actual advertising copy intended to sell expensive vehicles to rich people who drive them under warrantee. Like Mercedes and BMW's, they are built to last and run longer maintenance free. However, now that the junkyards in the U.S. are taking on more of them, we are finding they aren't quite the manufacturer of the future Wall Street wants to claim. I also find the maintenance I am attempting might work better if I was 3/5ths the size I am (average American size), having smaller hands and fingers. Nevertheless, I think eventually Toyota will cut me down to size given the number of knuckles I have skinned and thumbs I have nearly broken. Finally, this 4-runner has one difficult spark plug to access which may put it up as a rival for your Firebird.
My mechanic is pretty honest when it comes to repairs that suck. He'll come right out & say "I hate doing that repair." The only complaint he's had about my Tacoma is that his back's getting too old for the weight of my tires.
Maybe you need a hydraulic lift and some training.
The weight of the tires definitely threw me, but at that point I realized I had basically a truck and was no longer working on cars. I wouldn't complain about the weight of parts, though. With U.S. trucks, you find more room for work in the engine compartment and undercarriage than you will with a car. This 4-runner is jammed full of extraneous parts and that takes out all the free space. If you insist on personal slights, perhaps you're the one that needs training. Why are you replying to my posts if you require someone else to do the work for you? No wonder you came to Toyota's defense.
How many Toyota models have you worked on?
And, it wasn't a personal slight. The fact is that backyard mechanics are up against unique challenges. You don't have a lift, and I don't care HOW easy some repairs are - they're always harder when you're laying down under the car. Pro mechanics will never do this if they have a choice.
I don' think you can restrict this complaint to just Toyotas, or even claim your comments apply to all Toyota models. My SO and Sister have new RAV4's. Changing the oil is a breeze. From my observation of the engine compartment, most items that might need to be replaced over the life of the vehicle will be very easy. My son owned a 1996 Firebird and it had one of the worst layouts for service I have ever seen. And if you want to see a nightmare, take a look at a 1997 Ford Expedition......On the positive side most vehicles are so much more reliable now that many parts won't need to be services. The Expedition had hard to replace plugs, but they were good for at least 100,000 miles. Toyota doesn't require routine fuel filter replacement. I have a Nissan Frontier with the oil filter location from hell despite appearing to have plenty of room to do it right. Surprisingly, the late model Ford Thunderbird I owned was very easy to service. If serviceability is a prime concern, then you should look over a new vehicle before you purchase it. There are lots of variations from all manufacturers. Trying to make a blanket statement that all Toyotas are difficult to service is not reasonable. And how bad can it be if you are just now discovering that some parts on a 14 year old vehicle are hard to access?
Ed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Good point! I've never replaced a fuel filter in any car I've owned, and only one starter motor (and some of my cars have been older than 14.) The car Joe was referring to was (I think) a mid 70s model Chevy Monza with the 6 or even baby 8 cylinder engine. To get to a rearmost spark plug, one had to remove the motor mount attachments and rack the engine forward away from the firewall to get to the rear plug....great GM engineering. The most accessible engine I ever saw was one in a 1960 Rambler station wagon - the engine compartment was so big and the engine was so small that one could almost stand in the compartment to work on it - there was no a/c unit to crowd things either.
Hey, big guy. Real sorry to learn about the traffic ticket (glad it's only a warning) and the mashed thumb. I've had those days, too. Fortunately, I learned how to use hand tools without inducing digital damage ('cept when someone gave me the finger).
Here's some advice, Brucie, free of charge: Do NOT attempt to loosing the fuel filter using a torch. Or, if you do, please invite us all over first so we can enjoy the show.
The thing about cars is that they all have their quirks. Mechanics quickly learn the shortcuts, tools, tricks, and methods used to overcome the difficult repairs. The first time is often a bitch, as you're learning. That's the beauty of the "flat rate" approach -- the customer is protected when somebody like you takes 60 hours to perform a simple 60-minute repair Of course, with practice, you learn to do the repair in 30 minutes but still get to charge the full hour.
Fixed that broken Easy-out yet, big guy?
With practice, you snap 'em off in 2 or 3 minutes each.
Actually, they did: The mechanic gets paid a lot more for labor!
And, they learn to take notes about problems, so they can properly worship at the church of Snap-On when the dealer arrives. :-) That bastard used to walk into our car stereo shop, listen for obscenities emanating from one of the cars, and magically produce a tool that made the job at hand into a dream.
I don't think Wall Street is claiming anything about the durability of BMWs and Mercedeses. Perhaps your thinking of Munich and/or Stuttgart. Of course, there is a BWM dealer right on Wall Street. For Mercedes, the dealer is near the Port Authority Bus Terminal (I see it when I take the bus home, which is rarely). Something tells me that the BMW dealer on Wall Street is not have a good a great year so far nor is the Mercedes dealer.
Jeff
One local mechanic said that certain Honda Accords needed 5 hours for starter motor repair, but his shop replaced only about one a year, compared to about one starter a month for domestic brands.
Whooo..thought this was a Troll post...
Well, yeah, but then again, so do a lot of other cars. I traded a '94 Chrysler LHS in really nice shape for $600 towards my Scion tC, because all of the work that needed to be done to it was beyond my scope. But I kept the Grand V'Ger because it was fairly easy to work on...but about on par with any Toyota I've owned. Actually, there are a lot of things the Japs do *better* than US manufacturers when it comes to simplicity.
That said, I won't urge you to replace the front discs on a Honda Accord up to about '98 or '99, unless you have a press at your disposal...
Easy out....there is a misnamed 'device' if there ever was one....
Duhhh - 2 or 3 seconds is more like it...
I guess the ease or difficulty in working on a vehicle depends on what one is used to working on. I'm used to working on Toyotas and find routine maintenance pretty easy. Of course, a '59 Chevy wagon and '73 Impala have a lot less equipment stuffed into the engine compartment, and the extra vehicle width provides a lot more space between the wheel wells and fenders and the engine. From looking into the engine compartments of modern domestic vehicles at the auto show, they appear to have about the same work room as a modern Toyota so I don't think they would be any better or worse.
You can pretty much take replace anything that routinely needs replacing in a Toyota with 10, 12, and 14 millimeter wrenches and a Phillips screwdriver, which I find convenient. I don't have as much experience with domestic vehicles, but when I've worked on them, it seems like every fastener takes a different size wrench and I end up bringing out the whole socket set so I don't have to keep going out to the toolbox.
By the way, the fuel filter in your 4Runner should not need routine replacement.
That's kind of a funny post there, Mr. Ed. I didn't go any further than the >>changing oil is a breeze
MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.