Toyota soars because Fuel Efficiency

I was listening to NPR, and they pretty much said the same thing. Yet, they never mention that Toyota has been relentlessly increasing the size of it products relative to older models.

New Tundra - much bigger New RAV4 - much bigger Upcoming new Highlander - much bigger Current Camry - significantly larger than in the past Current 4Runner - much larger than older models (but at least much safer) Current Tacoma - much larger than older models

The Corolla hasn't changed much in years. The Yaris is about the same as the Echo it replaced, but several of the Scion models are moving up in size. Why does the press ignore this? Why are domestic manufacturers trashed for building large vehicles, and Toyota is praised, yet it is clearly increasing the size of its offering to compete with the domestic models?

Ed

You can pretty much ignore the opinions of the used car buyers that make up the majority of those that post in they NG, they do not have a clue about the new vehicle market.

Toyotas marketing mavens are not stupid they knew very well that American consumer preferred larger safer cars and trucks than what they were offering. By 1990, for Toyota to grow it sales, in the US market they had to go were the market was heading and where it is today.

Todays Camry, although still smaller than most of it domestic competitors cars, is a much larger safer car and the Corolla in a bigger safer car than even the Camry of old. Those in the NG constantly tell us buyers want small fuel efficient cars, not SUVs and trucks, all the while disregarding Toyotas growth in the US market has been primarily in its larger cars, and even larger luxury cars, as well as its introduction of larger SUVs and truck into their line up and that of Lexus. They seem to forget Toyotas best selling car is NOT a small car, but a mid size car. ;)

mike

Maybe it's because, even after all that horrid bloat, Toyota still has more nice choices in small cars that get pretty good gas mileage, than GM, Ford or Chrysler and maybe more than all three put together.

Go compare. Toyota offers a lot of choices for cars that get better than

30mpg, highway. Friends have them and report that they often do better than EPA estimates on the highway. GM has NOTHING like the Prius, of which Toyota sold 19,000 last month. Toyota even offers you choices at 40mpg and GM has absolutely nothing at all in that class.

So, you can feel free to whine on and on about some fantasy you have that Toyota's getting special treatment or you can tell GM, Ford and Chrysler to get off their collective duffs and build better small cars.

Every time the price of gas goes up, the value of your Toyota goes up.

I think you are confusing value with the drive home price charged by their dealers. LOL

mike

A true silver lining. ;-)

Cathy

>

Blue Book the value of your Toyota every time the cost of a gallon of gas increases long-term.

Was my basic statement wrong? Are Tundras, Tacomas, Siennas, Camrys, Avalons, etc. not larger now than 5 years ago? Isn't it true that liberal media outlets, like NPR, routinely cite larger vehicles as one of the domestic car industries short comings? I don't think I said anything false (and for sure not intentionally false). It is just an observation. I thought it was poor reporting when the NPR correspondent didn't mention that Toyota was also selling larger and less fuel efficient vehicles than in the past. I think we can agree that they are doing this because Toyota product planners perceive that US consumers want larger vehicles. So in my mind, when NPR, and other liberal outlets, start blaming the car companies for building larger, less fuel efficient vehicles, they are blaming the wrong people. Even Toyota recognizes that the market, at least until recently, wanted larger vehicles. Toyota, more so than other manufacturers, is in a position to benefit from the sudden shift to smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles, because they have ample capacity to build more small cars in Japan and export them to the US. In fact, because Toyota sales in Japan are down significantly (Toyota sales in its home market are actually down more than GMs sales in its home market), they have excess small car capacity that they can use to build cars for the US.

True for the US, but all of these companies have smaller, more fuel efficient models that they sell in other markets. It seems that they have made a marketing decision to not import those models here. Or prehaps, they don't have any excess capacity, so they can't build cars for export to the US.

I am not arguing that Toyota doesn't build good small cars. What I am suggesting is that Toyota has been following exactly the same strategy that the domestic manufacturers are slammed for - building ever larger and less efficient vehicles. Toyota's Vans, SUVs, trucks and US produced cars have steadily increased in size over the last decade. This is a fact, not an opinion.

Not in the US. But they have high mileage models in other markets. It has always seemed a mistake that GM doesn't sell more of those in the US. Except for a high percentage of the Corollas, all of the high efficiency small Toyotas are imported models. Why doesn't GM follow this same strategy?

I do think Toyota gets "special treatment." You only have to listen to the news. When a domestic producer has a recall, it is often a major story. When Toyota has a recall, you are lucky to hear about it at all. In 2005 Toyota recalled more vehicles than GM, Ford, or Chrysler. But you would never know that from press reports. However, I also agree that GM, Ford, and Chrysler need to get off their collective duffs and build better small cars - or at least import the ones they build in other markets.

I don't think stating an opinion or a belief is whining. It is just an opinion.

Ed

Can I go to GM and get a 40mpg car? Do I have a choice of three (or is it more) 40mpg cars? Toyota covers the fuel-efficient end of the market in a way that GM does not meet and seems to have no intention of meeting.

Do other comparisons. Does Toyota win fuel economy comparisons in class? The Camry offers a 4-cylinder engine. You CAN NOT GET a 4-cylinder engine in an Impala (well, that's probably a good thing, as I doubt GM has a

4-banger that could make the Impala move). Most Camrys sell wth 4-cylinder engines. Lucerne vs Avalon is an eye-opening comparison. The Lucerne is quicker and gets better fuel economy.

As these Toyotas grow, do they hold the line of fuel economy in that model? Looks to me like they mostly do.

Gas jumped 25 cents yesterday. How will this impact the sales of a manufacturer that makes nice small cars? How will this affect the sales of a manufacturer that's heavily weighted towards trucks?

I don't live in these "other markets." Come to think of it, neither does NPR.

And they have consistently introduced nice, fuel efficient, small cars at the bottom of the range as they did so.

I'm looking out the window and I see that I still don't live in these "other markets."

I don't follow Toyota's worldwide strategy but I'd bet you a quarter Toyota makes even smaller cars in "other markets," too.

R-i-i-i-g-h-t. Except that I DO hear about them, on the news or in the paper.

One could easily make an argument that the press favors Detroit. Look at the coverage of the Chevy Volt. The press got all hot'n'bothered about it and GM not only has no firm plans to build it, they have no idea when they can get the components necessary to build it ("We're in negotiations...") and no idea how to build it. It's vaporware. The earliest they could possibly build it is the 2010 model year (actually, I doubt they can make

2010). And this is nothing new... GM showed off a similar supercar back in '00 or so; a project with government funding assistance. It was a multiple-power-source hybrid with a Cx of .19. Do they build anything remotely like it today? Hah! Having achieved Cx of .19 (typical values are .3 and up), did they even bother to use that technology in new cars? Hah! And the press gets excited about the Volt? Whatever for? Well, I'll tell you... they're cheering for the home team and they have to cheer the concept cars because there's nothing else to cheer in what the Genera'ls doing in the high-mileage segment of the market

A new Toyota Prius, with significantly better performance and fuel economy than the current model, debuts in 2009. I don't even care which the press writes about, I just know which vehicle is more likely to affect me

You're whining. Maybe the press is somehow unfair but this situation certainly isn't an example of it. Your observation about models within Toyota's fleet growing in size was true but the facts you left out are also important. Get a clue: Toyota is clobbering the domestics in the 30+mpg segment in this market AND they're making money hand over fist and increasing market share. With gas prices dancing around $3/gallon here again, none of this is a surprise.

This is the same strategy used by most automakers. Remember when BMW imported the 2002 in 70s? Now it imports bigger cars like the 7 series. Similar story for VW, Audi, Mercedes, Hyundai and Honda.

I think one difference between the Michgan 3 and some foreign auto brands is that the foreign auto brands have continued to offer smaller imports than the US brands did. For example, the Corolla and Civic have gone through several generations and are still produced (although I think they have grown in size), but, cars from the US brands like the Pinto, Chevette and AMC Pacer are no longer produced.

So, a young- or middle-aged adult who remembers having an Escort or Pinto or Corolla or Civic as younger adult and had good reliable service from the car will be able to get a more modern Corolla or Civic, but not a more modern Escort or Pinto. So I think there is a marketing advantage to keeping the same model of car over the years, even though it goes through new generations. So, because of the consistancy of having similar cars for many car generations, I think this has given Toyota and Honda a marketing advantage over the Michigan 3.

This is the same reason why Dell sells the Dimension and Inspiron lines, even though the Dimension and Inspirons that I have use much earlier generation of parts than the Inspiron and Dimension that I have sitting on my desk.

This is why the Michigan 3 have a tendency to bring back old model names, like the 300 and Taurus.

Because they have to pay their workers, whether they are building the cars or people in Korea are building them?

The Camry, Corolla, Avalon, Solara, Sienna, Tundra, Tacoma, Pontiac Vibe (last three at NUMMI with GM), Tundra, Sequoia, Solara and Avalon are built in the US. Some these are imported, as well. The Matrix and Lexus RX350 are built in Canada.

The Chevy Aveo is built in Korea, I think. GM also sold a small 3-cyl car in the US back in 80s and maybe 90s. That was built in Asia.

I think part of the reason was that the Michigan 3 didn't see much point to making or importing small cars when the best they could do is just about break even.

Jeff

Total agreement...

The current Civic is nothing like the original. The name is the same, but nothing else. The current Civic is about as big as the original Accord. If Ford had called the Focus Escort, or Pinto, would it have made a difference? The Corolla they sell now is a completely different car than the "orignal" Corolla. It is also larger. The Yaris is closer to the size of the original Corolla. It seems to me that Toyota and Honda have kept the same name on radically different vehicles, while the doemstic manufacturers like to change names when they introduce a "new" model, and somethimes even rename old, little changed, models (like Caviler to Cobalt).

But why? I assume anyone who bought a Civic in 1979 knows the current Civic has nothing in common with the original Civic. Likewise for the original Corolla - no one could confuse a rear drive solid axle RWD Corolla with the current FWD transverse engine Corolla. Everything has changed but the name.

So it is your contention that people buy based solely on the name, even though the product the name represents might have nothing in common with prior version? I suppose I can believe this, at least in the short run.

Agreed, at least for model names that have a good history. Why do you suppose Toyota doesn't sell Tercels anymore? Why did they name the Echo replacement Yaris? I'm still waiting for a new Crown.

Probably true, but short sighted. They are essentially handing the low end markets to foregin manufacturer's.

No, but I beleive that this is one factor of hundreds that influence a person's decision on which cars and other products they buy.

Jeff

You are correct: you are not arguing, you are WHINING.

Except the way it works out, Toyota offers MORE choices for fairly fuel-efficient cars and actually HAS CHOICES for very fuel-efficient cars. Toyota (and Honda) offers cars that flirt with or exceed 40mpg and Detroit DOES NOT.

That's the difference. Whether they do it with the same model, a new model, let the old model grow, offer trucks, motor yachts or diesel army tanks, change the name, color them pink or whatever, it comes down to this:

If I want a 40mpg car (and I DO want a 40mpg car), I CAN NOT go to Detroit and get one but I CAN go to Toyota and get one.

And if, as a result, the press notices that Toyota offers fuel-efficient cars, well, they are absolutely correct. And to point out that "Toyota has been following exactly the same strategy that the domestic manufactureres are slammed for..." when, in fact, Toyota is NOT following the exact same strategy the domestics are getting slammed for and we know this because Toyota makes it an on-going priority to offer 40+mpg cars in this market and the domestics do NOT is WHINING.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

[snip]

Good question. Looks to me like they didn't need to run and hide from the name:

Bear in mind, those are reviews written in 2003 about a dirt-cheap economy car that was by then 7 years old.

Isn't "Yaris" the name they use overseas? Again, "Echo" wasn't a name that they had to run away from:

Note that that first page of reviews was written during or since '05 by people who STILL love their Echos.

Yeah and I'm waiting for a Chevy Volt. I probably have a pretty long wait ahead of me.

[chop]

Actually in many cases they are rated better that older models, but then that is ture for US makers as well (for example the top rated Focus gets 3 mpg better in 2007 than in 2000). But physics are physics, if Toyota applied all the same fuel economy improvements to the smaller models, they would almost certainly get better fuel economy than the new larger models.

It should hurt them. But hasn't Toyota spent large sums of money on increasing their truck sales?

True enough, but why does Toyota import significant numbers of cars from other markets to the US, while GM doesn't?

For the most part these are vehicles that were originally designed for other markets and adapted to the US. Where is the new smaller truck? The Yaris is a recast Echo. The Corolla has been stagnant for a decade. The Scion brand was created to sell small cars, but I think it has been only moderately successful - and all the Scion models are imported models adapted from other markets. The major US Toyota models - Avalon, Camry, Sienna, Tundra, Tacoma, have all been moved up in size in the last decade. Toyota has been following exactly the same sort of strategy in the US that the liberal press slams US manufacturer's for following. Toyota has the luxury of being able to bring in more fuel efficient vehicles from other markets that are in demand given the high gas prices. You seem to think this was an act of marketing genius. I contend that they were to some extent lucky. If gas was closer to $2 than $3, what do you think the situation might be?

But that is a marketing decision. GM builds and sells small fuel efficient cars all over the world. They chose not to sell them in this country. Toyota made the opposite choice. Why? It is not like Toyota has some magic technology that makes it cars amazingly more efficient.

Sure, and so does GM and Ford.

I do to, but it is not like the domestic recalls. The local TV station barely mentioned the Toyota truck balljoint recalls despite the fact that 7 deaths have been attributed to those failures. The Ford cruise control recall was in the press for months, yet no one has died as a result of that problem.

I would contned that the press loves electric cars, even GM electric cars.

Check the web for 2009 Prius speculation:

Now do the same for 2009 Fusion Hybrid.

Again, stating an opinion is not whining. It is my opinion that the press has a pro-Toyota bias. I might be wrong, but I still believe that. That doesn't make Toyotas bad cars, but it doesn't make them good ones either. And I agree that with gas prices at or over $3, Toyota is in a great position to benefit.

My original point is valid - Toyota has been growing the size of the vehicles it sells in the US in response to market demands - just like Ford and GM. It is unfair to cite Toyota as being especially perceptive, while knocking the US makers when they have been following similar strategies in the US. Yes Toyota builds good small cars. But for the most part, they have not invested heavily in small car design and production for the North American market. The small Toyotas sold here are mostly older designs (Corolla - and Corollas are not all that small) or designs adapted from other markets (Scion, Yaris). For whatever reason, Ford and GM have not paid much attention to the very small, very fuel efficient car segment in the US. I think that is a mistake, but I can't see where Toyota has been particularly aggressive in this area either. Toyota is fortunate to have excess production capacity for small cars in Japan. This allows them to take advantage of the change in the market. I wonder how well positioned they would be if Japanese home market sales weren't off by 10%, allowing them to use the excess capacity to build more small cars for the US.

Ed

This is unfair. You have your point of view. I have mine. Clearly we aren't going to agree on this. That's fine, neither you, me, nor Toyota are going to suffer if we don't agree. But it is unfair for you to characterize my expression of my opinion as whining when you are essentially doing the same thing, but from the opposite side.

Ed

Except to you Toyota dealer, when you trade of course. Toyota dealers are famous for offering less than wholesale on their trade prices. LOL

mike

A practice totally limited to Toyota dealers.

NOT!

I think part of GM's challenge is that their older assembly plants in North America are not flexible enough to be able to switch production quickly enough to keep up with changes in demand. For example, an idle truck plant cannot be converted to an Aveo plant that easily.

I think GM would import greater numbers of crs from other markets to the U.S. if demand warranted it. It makes no sense to produce and import more small cars if the demand is not there.

IMO, a big part of the Detroit 3's woes is marketing and image. American consumers probably tend to think of imports when they are looking for a fuel efficient car because that was the import niche for such a long time and so they perceive the imports as having more experience with small cars.

I pointed out exactly where you were whining - or, if you'd prefer, drawing ridiculous conclusions about Toyota and their press coverage:

"And if, as a result, the press notices that Toyota offers fuel-efficient cars, well, they are absolutely correct. And to point out that "Toyota has been following exactly the same strategy that the domestic manufactureres are slammed for..." when, in fact, Toyota is NOT following the exact same strategy the domestics are getting slammed for and we know this because Toyota makes it an on-going priority to offer 40+mpg cars in this market and the domestics do NOT is WHINING."

And, if you don't like that, I can change the last line to:

"...the domestics do NOT is RIDICULOUS."

Happy now?

And, for the record, I amd not whining from the opposite side, I am expressing impatience with your intransigence.

When GM or Ford has a line of cars - or at least one car - for sale here in the US that gets 40+mpg and the press is somehow still lauding Toyota for their fuel economy, I'll be happy to revisit the issue.