Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota - Page 2

It's quite common, but way under publicized, in the commercial side for
dedicated CNG, not so much for duel fuel.  The limit there is the
availability of commercial fueling stations.

The big problem with private adoption is the mix of federal, state and local
regulations with (drum roll) profit center fees and certifications.

I can install a  CNG/NG conversion for back up power generation for less
that $100 for permits.  When I go for a CNG home fueling station the permit
and fees can go through the roof. (working on that issue both locally and at
the state level).

If I want to convert a liquid fuel station to sell CNG again the permits,
inspection and fees are out of sight.  In fact in some cases it's cheaper to
get a permit for a high pressure NG pipe line than it is to get a CNG fuel
station approved.  BTDT.

I may be tilting at wind mills as I'd prefer to do this according to the
permitting system but if necessary I can play the existing rules to  my
advantage.  As example I own land that is technically farm land and in these
parts are not so encumbered in what can be done, often without a permit.

One thing I have found is that after market conversations must be
disconnected every year for a emissions inspection. Do-able but a big PI*.

We drive quite a bit - around 100 gallons per month, easily.  I've
seen used CNG vehicles for around $4,000 on autotrader.com (just type
in "natural gas" in the Keywords box), so retrofit costs aren't really
an issue.  Assuming

A =3D X gallons * ($3.50/gallon gasoline)
B =3D X gallons * ($2.50/gallon equivalent of Natural Gas at a public
fill station)

and let A - B =3D $4,000,
X gallons =3D 4,000 gallons
and at 100 gallons per month, breakeven time (for the whole vehicle) =3D
about 3 years.

I expect, however, if I get a home compressor, I will exceed the
baseline usage for natural gas, especially in the wintertime.  Will
have to do the calcs to figure out how many therms are in a 10-gallon,
3,000-psi tank full of natural gas... =3D)

Michael

We drive quite a bit - around 100 gallons per month, easily.  I've
seen used CNG vehicles for around $4,000 on autotrader.com (just type
in "natural gas" in the Keywords box), so retrofit costs aren't really
an issue.  Assuming

A = X gallons * ($3.50/gallon gasoline)
B = X gallons * ($2.50/gallon equivalent of Natural Gas at a public
fill station)

and let A - B = $4,000,
X gallons = 4,000 gallons
and at 100 gallons per month, breakeven time (for the whole vehicle) =
about 3 years.

I expect, however, if I get a home compressor, I will exceed the
baseline usage for natural gas, especially in the wintertime.  Will
have to do the calcs to figure out how many therms are in a 10-gallon,
3,000-psi tank full of natural gas... =)

Michael

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sounds to me like you need to be calling the natural gas provider to see if
you can get a commercial account so you get around the baseline limitations
of residential customers.

Indeed, it really sounds like you should be buying a case of scotch for your
congressman to get him to get legislation that makes your idea economically
feasable. Having said that, no matter what the building permit fees might
be, you simply add them to your fleet operating costs, and then see how the
ammortization schedule works out vis a vis the ROI.

...


Oh, duh, I was over-analyzing this.  From Wikipedia, one gallon-of-
gasoline-equivalent (GGE) of natural gas is 127 cubic feet, @ 900 btu
per cubic foot.  Therefore one GGE is about 1.1 therm.  Here (northern
California) one therm costs about $1, depending on the time of year.
Doable, I guess.

Retro kids are an option but the reality is that if done properly the
converter faces a *lot* of unnecessary expense.  Texas has a requirement
that the person doing the conversion have a state certificate which cost
$5K.  I am (was) qualified to build rockets for NASA (long time back) but I
can't qualify for the state certificate without paying for a class and the
certificate.

If this was only for a one or two off project of a personal nature I'd go
the aftermarket conversion but since part of this (and enough of a part to
attract attention) I need to play by the rules.

As for drilling.  Some (perhaps most) of the leases have a 'must
drill/produce' clause that means the producer is compelled to do so even if
there is no market.  At one time this was referred to as 'take or pay'.