Yes, hybrids can mean savings

Yes, hybrids can mean savings

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Reply to
Jim Higgins
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Even simpler, assuming fuel costs at $2.50 per gallon and never changing, and a "regular" car giving 35 mpg while a hybrid turns out 45 mpg, the regular car costs $0.071 per mile to operate, the hybrid costs $.055. The savings is $.016 per mile. At that rate and a fixed cost of $2.50, it would take 812,500 miles to recover the added cost of the hybrid, assuming a $13,000 price premium for the feature.

It doesn't matter much what the price of fuel is since we are comparing the difference in per mile operating costs for the fuel alone. Add in the cost of the batteries and it becomes clear to me that one ought not buy a hybrid because it gets better fuel mileage. One buys a hybrid because they want to help the environment. Having said that, I wonder if it takes more energy to build a hybrid than a regular car. Hmmm ...

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Reply to
Jeff Strickland

Only fallacy is when one considers the "regular car" getting 35 mpg (I wouldn't call any car getting 35 mpg a "regular car"). Didn't happen here. My former "regular car" was getting 16 mpg verses the 45 mpg I now get with the Prius. My gas bill is around a third of what it was and my maintenance bill has dropped as well (extended brake wear and further between oil service intervals). My paperwork shows me saving approximately $150 per month.

$13,000 premium! Say what?!! The Prius cannot be compared to anything else. Its features surpass those of a Corolla (hatchback, computerized goodies, etc.). Not the same car any more than a H-1 Hummer is a H-2 or H-3 Hummer.

Your logic escapes me. A vehicle (Prius) that gets 45 mpg over another that gets 25 mpg (or whatever) gets better fuel mileage, no? As mentioned elsewhere, the HV battery is covered for the life of ownership if you keep your car 8 years in California. Don't know about elsewhere.

Not so here. I bought it because it had features not offered elsewhere (Bluetooth phone integration, GPS, better climate control, sound system, hatchback, roominess, snappy electric acceleration, stealthy quietness, SmartKey system, better HID lighting, and that yakking lady beneath the dash). The range between gas stops and satisfied ownership smiles cannot be factored in or compared to something like what was in a less costly Corolla.

Toyota knows...but probably won't say.

B~

Reply to
B. Peg

Interesting I just read the CR today. One thing I must point out is CR compares Accord hybrid to an Accord 4 cylinder model which is not orange to orange case.

The Accord hybrid should be compared against Accord EX-V6 which is $2000 more(hence the initial investment on HAH is $2000 less) and saved even more gas...

Comapring Prius to Corolla is also not quite fair since Prius has more options installed and drives smoother IMO.

HCH vs. Civic EX is more reasonable and it turned out really saving $. I have been comapring the cost myself among those models and still decide to go with gas engine because of unknown battery cost and CVT repair cost...

Reply to
harry

I thought the CR comparison of the Accord hybrid price to the 4 cylinder price was ridiculous.

Reply to
Art

I thought it curious that several of the new hybrids had V6 engines. I gather they offer Vette-like acceleration but I'm reallly surprised they didn't go with an I-4 - or even an I-3 - for "good" performance, light weight, extra space in the engine compartment for electrics plus outstanding economy. I'd really like to see something like an I-3 diesel hybrid.

In that case, a comparison to an Accord I4 would be more appropriate but it would still be most appropriate to compare it to the conventional Accord with the most similar performance.

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Reply to
DH

What I would like to see is an accessory battery pack for hybrids which, when charged, could power the car on the electric motor exlusively. It would take up most of the trunk and be in modules so that it could be removed in reasonably weighty pieces. With the extra batteries installed you could charge the car over night and go 100 miles on electric which would cover most commutes. If you need the car for a vacation trip you leave the extra batteries home and use the car like a normal hybrid. Some people have made similar modifications to their hybrids. It is time for the manufacturers to offer them that way.

Reply to
Art

That strikes me as a good idea. Better still would be the ability to buy the extra battery pack in chunks and configure the car to your exact needs.

20 miles would be enough for me. Plug in the car at night and get most of my commuting energy off the grid. And recharge at overnight power rates. Yes, many advantages.
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Reply to
DH

The existing Prius is part-way there already. Its "EV" command button makes it work as an Electric Vehicle until the battery is so depleted that the petrol engine must step in and recharge it. As things stand (never having tried EV on my Prius), I gather one gets only a big fraction of a mile from full charge on a not-too- demanding road. But one hears of experimenters who have filled the back of the car with batteries and obtained usefully greater distances, so there could be some future in the idea.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

My assuption is that one who would buy a hybrid would also consider an alternative that sipped fuel as miserly as possible, typically something along the lines of a Corolla. If we change the scenario to a "regular" car that gives 20 mpg as opposed to the hybrid that gets 45, the pay off period in miles would be just a bit over 185,700 miles. That is a lifetime, when considering how long a car is generally expected to last.

Using your experience of saving $150 per month, it still takes 86 months, or about one month longer than most finance agreements.

Agreed, but that is beside the point. I was trying to compare a car like a Prius to a Corolla ONLY in the area of fuel consumption. I get that there is a feature package that runs on the order of $13,000 but includes more than just the hybrid package.

Having said that, the Highlander comes in both a gas version and a hybrid version. What is the pricing difference in what is otherwise the same car? This would give us a better comparison to arrive at the ROI (return on investment).

Okay. But if the ROI from fuel savings takes 7 years to realize (compared to

25 mpg, much longer when copared to 35 mpg), then the battery cost becomes a factor in another year, assuming continued ownership.

To be sure, I am not dissing the decision to buy a hybrid, the option package apparently adds value that I hadn't considered. I'm only saying that anybody that buys hybrid for the express purpose of saving money on gas is fooling themselves, it takes something on the order of 7 ~ 10 years to recover the added cost of a hybrid. Since the average driver gets a new car every 5 ~ 7 years (many in a much shorter period) then they wil not save any money because it takes longer than the ownership period to recover the up-front cost in fuel savings.

But, let's talk about two essentially identical cars, the Highlander or Ford Escape, or any other model, that comes in both Gas Only trim, and in Hybrid. What differences in options is there when the platform is the same, but the drivetrain is changed to support the hybrid technology? I'm only guessing here, but I suspect the options are pretty similar, particularly when the Top of the Line model is compared to the hybrid. There is a certain apples and oranges comparison when talking about the Corolla and the Prius, and the trim packages (options) each has.

I suspect you're right on that one. Somebody should be able to calculate the energy costs to mfg. hybrid hardware for a car, then figure out how this compares gas or deisel mfg costs.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

I don't think that feature is available on American Piruses.

Reply to
The BeNevolent dbu

I see. Maybe they plan to introduce it to the US market. I may have imagined it, but it seemed as if _some_ options for UK-spec "2005" model were being trumpeted as new on the US "2006" model: leather seats, for example. I don't track the two markets very carefully. The UK Prius market is served by three variants for now: T3, T4 and T5. The T4 has the built-in toys most folks want on a sensible day. Toyota's UK website could clarify things.

Reply to
Andrew Stephenson

You're arguing with people who are still paying off their thermal windows. Don't waste your breath anymore. Save it for those who have a genuine interest and have money.

mark_

Reply to
mark digital

Who are your trying to convince that your Pruis was a better buy? Surly not the Corolla owners, who actually know which was the better buy when they chose it of the Pruis. LOL

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

More other Toyota buyers do as well.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The true test of the cost of driving home a hybrid is when one compares the conventionally powered twin to the hybrid. I E Highlander, Lexus, Civic and Escape, etc. The higher initial cost is apparent and loss of retail value, when the time comes to replace the battery pack, is enviable. Personally I hope many buyers buy the hybrids so they can save fuel for those of us that want to drive high powered cars. LOL

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I'm sure you meant to say, "save fuel for those of us who have to compensate for personal shortcomings by driving high-powered cars on public roads where high-powered cars are pretty much pointlesss."

You're welcome.

Those of us driving smaller cars, using public transport, walking, biking and car-pooling would rather be saving fuel to drive the price of oil down, to reduce transfer payments to terrorists, to avoid propping up corrupt regimes, to improve the US balance of trade, to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and to reduce pollution... but as long as we're doing good for somebody, then we're happy.

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Reply to
DH

Those of us that prefer high powered and sporty type cars, salute those of you that are willing to settle for something less and can afford to the extra cost of owning a hybrid, to save the planet. Thank you. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I bet I pay less than you for car insurance and I have better coverage.

Reply to
mark digital

You do not want to take that bet.. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

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