88 Camry Catalytic Converter & Idling Problems...

?88 Camry All Trac 2.0 liter with 256,000 miles. I?ve had it 5 years. Terrific car; cheap insurance and no car payment. I am trying to keep it running until kids grow up and wife re-enters the workforce. I recently returned from the local Toyota dealership with a $400 bill after having only part of the work done that they wanted to do. History: trouble started with a hole in the muffler. Muffler shop replaced it but then the car was VERY sluggish. Had to coax it up to speed which was not a good thing while trying to merge onto the interstate highway everyday. Nearly became a hood ornament. Back to muffler shop with diagnosis of plugged catalytic converter. (Engine ran great with exhaust disconnected). This Camry has two cats (small pre-cat? under hood after exhaust manifold and larger one just prior to muffler). Muffler shop couldn?t get pre-cat so they chipped it out and installed larger "all-in-one" unit ahead of muffler. I heard them revving the car to REALLY high RPM several times while working on it. When I asked, they explained it was to clear out debris from cat extraction. Back on the road and still no power! Muffler shop sent car to another shop and said timing was off & belt had probably jumped. I had to pay for the engine analysis and timing. After thinking it through, I wondered if belt hadn?t jumped from the high revving. However, the car ran like a rally car and I was very happy with the result... Until a few months later... engine missing and needed new plugs, rotor, distributor cap. Then it was good to go again... for a short while. I noticed engine would not drop to a low idle and over time, got worse. Car failed emission test. The garage offered to put it on their engine analyzer and try to get it to pass. The next day, they said they "tweaked it" and it was ready. However, within a month, or so, the "low" idle had risen to 2200 rpm and would not come down. The engine still had power, but was also missing. I checked plugs and they looked surprisingly worn for only being a year old. Replaced plugs and the idle "dropped" to 1700 rpm. Engine still powerful but missed. Went to Toyota and they said timing had been advanced so far that throttle positioning sensor had shorted out & "dumping fuel" into engine. They changed TPS; set throttle & retimed. Charges included $87 for TPS, $297.50 for labor to read codes & do work, & $15 for hazardous waste. Total $410. OUCH! Total could have been $635. They also wanted to do plug wires, cap, & rotor for another $85 and clear fuel rails and clean throttle body for another $140. When I asked what was involved in the cleaning, they said, $80 labor and $50 for the cleaner. I declined. Car idles at 800 now, but also is a much more sedate vehicle. Can you give me your take on this? Is advancing the timing a trick to boost performance (muffler shop?) or to pass emissions (garage with emission test?) Why did it damage the TPS? Should I have said yes to fuel rails & throttle body cleaning? I will replace wires, cap & rotor myself (again). Any input is appreciated!

Reply to
skeedn
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Sorry to say you had some bad mechanics. Advancing the timing to far you usualy hear engine nock , but it will make it run hotter. Yes a stretched belt will retard timing. A good investment is a 20$ timing light, it is DIY for checking. I cant say the problem but a new mechanic might be best.

Reply to
m Ransley

Use factory parts for the ignition work you're going to do.

Whenever you've got an older car, and at the mercy of shops - can be a problem.

If you can buy the factory parts online or at a discount and do your own diagnostic and repair work, you can keep those cars running for a long, long, time, but from long experience, I've found it tough to trust most mechanics. Once mentioned to the manager in the parts department at my local dealer how much higher their prices seemed, and that I'd been buying parts online, even though I would like to support them. After that, their prices were competitive or slightly better.

Yes advancing the timing could cause more power at risk of engine damage, not sure how the TPS could be affected though.

Using the factory service manual, recently did remove and clean the throttle body and adjust the TPS. Found several items (everything mentioned in the manual) that needed adjustment. Had to buy an air compressor first, but then was able to clear one of the vacuum lines to the EGR modulator.

For injector cleaning I use Redline's complete fuel system cleaner with each tankful of gas (measured amount as indicated - one bottle per hundred gallons). Cleans injectors, valves and emission controls and will also add power.

Even though they may cost more, I like to stay with genuine Toyota parts. Generally they are much better quality and fit better. Removing one of the catalytic converters may have compromised your emissions tests.

Usually aftermarket muffler shops cut the pipes and weld in universal replacements, so to get back to factory parts, you'd probably have to replace everything again. Your call.

I could write a small book about problems I've had with muffler shops, tire shops, transmission shops, and the like through the years. By reading these groups, reading the manual, and learing to do my own work the Toyotas can last virtually forever.

In my humble opinion, one of the greatest benefits, is that you can take your time, go carefully, and clean and inspect as you go, whereas most all mechanics can make more money if they work more quickly. Cars do respond to TLC where small problems are detected and corrected early.

Maybe, since you've already started substituting parts, and only need the car a few more years, you can hobble by as you're going, just use the right parts for the plugs and wires - they are especially sensitive to aftermarket replacements.

Reply to
Daniel

"nospampls20021" wrote: > Use factory parts for the ignition work you're going to do. > > Whenever you've got an older car, and at the mercy of shops - > can be a > problem. > > If you can buy the factory parts online or at a discount and > do your > own diagnostic and repair work, you can keep those cars > running for a > long, long, time, but from long experience, I've found it > tough to > trust most mechanics. Once mentioned to the manager in the > parts > department at my local dealer how much higher their prices > seemed, and > that I'd been buying parts online, even though I would like to > support > them. After that, their prices were competitive or slightly > better. > > Yes advancing the timing could cause more power at risk of > engine > damage, not sure how the TPS could be affected though. > > Using the factory service manual, recently did remove and > clean the > throttle body and adjust the TPS. Found several items > (everything > mentioned in the manual) that needed adjustment. Had to buy an > air > compressor first, but then was able to clear one of the vacuum > lines to > the EGR modulator. > > For injector cleaning I use Redline's complete fuel system > cleaner with > each tankful of gas (measured amount as indicated - one bottle > per > hundred gallons). Cleans injectors, valves and emission > controls and > will also add power. > > Even though they may cost more, I like to stay with genuine > Toyota > parts. Generally they are much better quality and fit better. > Removing > one of the catalytic converters may have compromised your > emissions > tests. > > Usually aftermarket muffler shops cut the pipes and weld in > universal > replacements, so to get back to factory parts, you'd probably > have to > replace everything again. Your call. > > I could write a small book about problems I've had with > muffler shops, > tire shops, transmission shops, and the like through the > years. By > reading these groups, reading the manual, and learing to do my > own work > the Toyotas can last virtually forever. > > In my humble opinion, one of the greatest benefits, is that > you can > take your time, go carefully, and clean and inspect as you go, > whereas > most all mechanics can make more money if they work more > quickly. Cars > do respond to TLC where small problems are detected and > corrected > early. > > Maybe, since you've already started substituting parts, and > only need > the car a few more years, you can hobble by as you're going, > just use > the right parts for the plugs and wires - they are especially > sensitive > to aftermarket replacements.

Thanks for the good suggestions. I am finding out that aftermarket is only cheaper in the short run. I never bought factory parts because of the huge price differential. I will start looking online to see prices. At least that way I can ask if the local dealer can get closer to it??

I am not sure where the fuel rails are. I looked them up in a Chilton?s but it wasn?t listed. I assume the Redline?s cleaner would get through the entire fuel system and clean them. I will look for that at our parts stores.

I like the idea of doing my own work, just need more time to read and find out what I can do. Too bad I hadn?t found this forum before!

Thanks for your help!

Reply to
skeedn

"m Ransley" wrote: > Sorry to say you had some bad mechanics. Advancing the timing > to far you > usualy hear engine nock , but it will make it run hotter. Yes > a > stretched belt will retard timing. A good investment is a 20$ > timing > light, it is DIY for checking. I cant say the problem but a > new mechanic > might be best.

I?ll definitely be getting a timing light for the future. I also need to find a local mechanic. I have just been using the specialized shops as needed. Re: the timing, the engine didn?t knock, but once in awhile a small pop like a backfire. Didn?t mind it though since it was going VROOM!

Reply to
skeedn

A backfire could be advanced timing, pre ignition. It will kill a motor by overheating and eventualy nocking a hole in the piston. Timing belts stretch as they get old, when my timing was retarded I had little power and poor milage

Reply to
m Ransley

I am not sure where the fuel rails are. =A0I looked them up in a Chilton=92s but it wasn=92t listed. =A0I assume the Redline=92s cleaner wou= ld get through the entire fuel system and clean them.

------------------------ Your 2.0 liter only has one fuel rail - and it should never need cleaning. The fuel rail is just a tube that contains fuel under pressure as a supply reservoir for the fuel injectors. If you take a flash light, or shop light, and look at the back of your engine, near the firewall, looking at a level below the valve cover, you should see a ribbed aluminum length of fuel rail close to the injectors that plug into the intake ports. I suspect most folks fail to use the Redline long enough to get the real benefits. A single use generally will improve power, but the real benefit is in continuing to use a small amount every time gasoline is added to the fuel tank. Used to measure carefully according to the marks on the side of the bottle, but now, after adding so many times, just add what seems about right. If you take the time to read Redline's technical data section, you discover that it can take around 10,000 miles to clean the intake valves, but I like that, because it is not using harsh solvents, but high temperature detergents, combined with synthetic upper cylinder lubricants that are safe for continuous use. They represent that the Redline CFSC (complete fuel system cleaner?) also cleans emission control components. I recently considered replacing the main oxygen sensor as preventative maintenance, but when removing the exhaust pipe to replace the engine oil pan gasket, I could see the secondary O2 sensor, and it still looked new - very clean. It seems, as cars age, the O2 sensor can become coated with carbon deposits, causing a "lazy" response time, but using an analog voltmeter, the response on my primary O2 sensor was well within factory specs, plus a recent state emission test showed zero O2 at 25 mph, and reduced, very low emissions in every other category as well, including CO and NOx, which supposedly rise with O2 sensor weakness, so after much consideration, have left the O2 sensor in. The Redline CFSC supposedly absorbs and removes water in the fuel tank also. Of course, it also cleans injector tips - and regular use then keeps them clean. This is where fouling can be most likely to occur - or not, some people say this is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and that all name brand gasolines from major companies are already required to include detergents that prevent injector fouling. I suppose the Redline company is primarily oriented to racing applications. They cite a paper that showed none of the gasolines actually kept injectors clean despite industry claims. Seems that gasoline is delivered in bulk and the proprietary additives that differentiate brands are added later, so I would guess there's always room for error. Again from Redline's tech. data, if one injector spray pattern weakens, the O2 sensor, taking an average reading at the exhaust manifold richens the mixture overall, so keeping all the injectors clean improves both mileage and power. But one of my favorite parts is that the Redline fuel treatment cleans the face of the intake valves. As you may know, your Toyota derives a significant portion of its power from the use of four valves per cylinder. When the intake charge meets the heated valves, deposits can be left behind over time. This effectively reduces the "breathing" ability of your engine - a prime determinant of operating efficiency. This is why racers spend so much time selecting camshafts, and the newer Toyota engines vary valve timing to increase power. Your engine has fixed valve timing, but you can maximize the cam you have by keeping those valve faces free of deposits. It does make a difference, far as I can tell.

Reply to
Daniel

"m Ransley" wrote: > A backfire could be advanced timing, pre ignition. It will > kill a motor > by overheating and eventualy nocking a hole in the piston. > Timing belts > stretch as they get old, when my timing was retarded I had > little power > and poor milage

Is a timing belt more likely to stretch while fairly new or when old? I did have the timing belt replaced a few years ago...

Reply to
skeedn

"nospampls20021" wrote: > I am not sure where the fuel rails are.  I looked them up in a > Chilton?s but it wasn?t listed.  I assume the Redline?s > cleaner would > get through the entire fuel system and clean them. > ------------------------ > Your 2.0 liter only has one fuel rail - and it should never > need > cleaning. > The fuel rail is just a tube that contains fuel under pressure > as a > supply reservoir for the fuel injectors. > If you take a flash light, or shop light, and look at the back > of your > engine, near the firewall, looking at a level below the valve > cover, > you should see a ribbed aluminum length of fuel rail close to > the > injectors that plug into the intake ports. > I suspect most folks fail to use the Redline long enough to > get the > real benefits. > A single use generally will improve power, but the real > benefit is in > continuing to use a small amount every time gasoline is added > to the > fuel tank. > Used to measure carefully according to the marks on the side > of the > bottle, but now, after adding so many times, just add what > seems about > right. > If you take the time to read Redline's technical data section, > you > discover that it can take around 10,000 miles to clean the > intake > valves, but I like that, because it is not using harsh > solvents, but > high temperature detergents, combined with synthetic upper > cylinder > lubricants that are safe for continuous use. > They represent that the Redline CFSC (complete fuel system > cleaner?) > also cleans emission control components. I recently considered > replacing the main oxygen sensor as preventative maintenance, > but when > removing the exhaust pipe to replace the engine oil pan > gasket, I could > see the secondary O2 sensor, and it still looked new - very > clean. It > seems, as cars age, the O2 sensor can become coated with > carbon > deposits, causing a "lazy" response time, but using an analog > voltmeter, the response on my primary O2 sensor was well > within factory > specs, plus a recent state emission test showed zero O2 at 25 > mph, and > reduced, very low emissions in every other category as well, > including > CO and NOx, which supposedly rise with O2 sensor weakness, so > after > much consideration, have left the O2 sensor in. > The Redline CFSC supposedly absorbs and removes water in the > fuel tank > also. > Of course, it also cleans injector tips - and regular use then > keeps > them clean. > This is where fouling can be most likely to occur - or not, > some people > say this is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and > that all > name brand gasolines from major companies are already required > to > include detergents that prevent injector fouling. > I suppose the Redline company is primarily oriented to racing > applications. They cite a paper that showed none of the > gasolines > actually kept injectors clean despite industry claims. Seems > that > gasoline is delivered in bulk and the proprietary additives > that > differentiate brands are added later, so I would guess there's > always > room for error. > Again from Redline's tech. data, if one injector spray pattern > weakens, > the O2 sensor, taking an average reading at the exhaust > manifold > richens the mixture overall, so keeping all the injectors > clean > improves both mileage and power. > But one of my favorite parts is that the Redline fuel > treatment cleans > the face of the intake valves. > As you may know, your Toyota derives a significant portion of > its power > from the use of four valves per cylinder. When the intake > charge meets > the heated valves, deposits can be left behind over time. This > effectively reduces the "breathing" ability of your engine - a > prime > determinant of operating efficiency. This is why racers spend > so much > time selecting camshafts, and the newer Toyota engines vary > valve > timing to increase power. > Your engine has fixed valve timing, but you can maximize the > cam you > have by keeping those valve faces free of deposits. > It does make a difference, far as I can tell.

Thanks for the interesting info. re: the fuel rail and your experience with Redline. I?m glad I didn?t spend the extra money at the dealership. I?ll bet I can buy a lot of Redline for what they wanted to charge!

Reply to
skeedn

Is a timing belt more likely to stretch while fairly new or when old?

--------- Should not be a major problem for you if the belt is tensioned correctly when installed. The load on the belts is relatively light. If they loosened excessively, the relatively small teeth in the underside of the belt would allow the teeth in the driven sprockets to "jump" and alter valve timing which is very rare. You may lose a few degrees of iginition timing over 60 - 90,000 miles, but that is restored when the belt is replaced. If you adjust the ignition timing for a worn belt, then you would have to change it back when installing a new belt. Actually, oddly, the belt may stretch more when new. This is why it is important to place a load on the belt when installing. The tensioning spring just holds the tensioner pulley in place. You need to apply lots of pressure to the belt by levering against that pulley, then release the tension and allow the spring to hold it in place only, while tightening. This removes any initial stretch.

Reply to
Daniel

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