ABS always helpful?

Hi,

Last week there was some snow over here. Driving with my company car (Opel Astra stationwagon) I had a scary experience. This car is the first one with Antilock Braking System that I ever drove in snow. I had to slow down from a speed of about 40km/h (25mph) to stop for a red trafficlight to turn right. The lane for turning right was filled with snow, and about 40 meters long. The main lane which I was driving on, was less snowy, due to the tons of salt they put on the roads here if they suspect its going to be slippery. I started braking gently, but the ABS immediately came into action, resulting in a situation that I could indeed control the car, but I could not STOP the car. I tried to release the brake pedal even further, but ABS kept working. No brake action at all, and the only thing I could do was to turn right, even though the traffic light was red. Fortunately there was no other traffic on the junction. This whole thing left me with the feeling that without ABS it would have been tricky to not start sliding, but that I would have had a better chance to slow down, and probably stop the car in time. ABS worked fine for me on a few occasions, at much higher speeds, in wet conditions. But I seriously doubt the benefits of the system at low speeds in snow or ice. A colleague of mine had a similar experience the very same morning. Just thought I would write this down, and I am interested in your opinions and experiences.

Eric. The Netherlands.

93 Camry 2.2 auto.
Reply to
Klaas
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Well, I have had ABS, for 5 years, in my 99 Camry, here in Edmonton where we have ice and/or snow as early as September and as late as May. I, for one, am glad I have it. The facts are that 99.9 % of drivers do NOT have the skills to break better than ABS. You are supposed to hold them down FIRMLY and manouevre to safety, as required. Tests indicate, though, that ABS braking on certain types of loose gravel has similar stopping distances to non ABS equipped vehicles. I'm sure, though, that the flames will start coming, from egomaniacs who swear that THEY can do better themselves than ABS. Just watch 'em start foaming at the mouth.

Reply to
Charks

I'm afraid I have to agree with Eric. ABS is good if one wants to both brake and maneuver, but for straight line stopping under most winter conditions it's inferior to an experienced, and it only requires a practice session at the start of each winter season, driver (we have two vehicles, one with ABS, one without). The more controllable the brakes, the better, because the driver must sense the slipperiness of the road and set, or modulate, the braking force accordingly.

snipped-for-privacy@att.net Rochester Minnesota USA

Reply to
Glenn Pooler

We are experiencing a Minnesota-Edmonton winter here in Southern Ontario and I am damn glad to have ABS. I have had one experience that the original poster read about low speed stopping that was a tad thrilling where it seemed I was gliding on sheer ice but will trade that experience off for all the easy stops and slow downs I have had without losing control.

The XLE sure is a difference between that and my old Caprice Classic. I feel lots safer but not as safe as the SUV idjits in the rhubarb. There is a strip of winding road nearby that collects Explorers and CRV's with regularity. I like to wave at them as I creep by.

Mike The Artful Codger

Reply to
Artfulcodger

The problem is, despite all the cool demos, there is no clear evidence that ABS reduces the total number of accidents or saves lives. "We" (all of us collectively) are spending literally billions of dollars for a "safety device" that on average is not providing a safety benefit. Any credible test I have seen indicates that ABS on ice is at best useless. But your mileage may vary. However, I do know at least one fomer ABS enhusiast. A co-worker used to rave about how great his car stopped with ABS and now ABS had saved his ass on numerous occasions. One rainy day I asked to drive the car to "try" the ABS. He was cooperative. We found a nice empty parking lot and I proceeded to demonstrate the ABS. Like many systems, when his ABS is actually active there is a lot of growling and pedal pulsing. He was amazed. He had never actually had the ABS activate in over a year of driving. So much for ABS saving his ass. He no longer brags about the ABS. He now agrees with me, he was ripped off. What is even worse, in an attempt to make ABS useful, some vehicles how have an extra assist feature. If you press the brake hard (like in a panic stop), the damn system applies them extra hard for you. My Expedition has this feature and it is very disconcerting. Thank goodness my Vue is not crippled with ABS brakes.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

As I understand it, ABS only kicks in if the wheels (or a wheel) locks. So if it kicked in with gentle pressure, it must have thought you were skidding, and I'm not sure how you would have been able to brake better without ABS. You should still be able to reduce brake pressure to the point that your wheels aren't locking and keep it there to stop, which is the same thing you'd do without ABS, right?

If you mean that you could have stopped faster with the wheels locked than with ABS, I don't see how. On most conditions, that's not the case. I guess maybe it could be better to skid through a pile of snow than to roll over it with ABS, but I don't know.

I wonder if something else was wrong, that caused ABS to kick in. This winter, I got a new car with ABS and ABS has only kicked in with the pedal pretty far down, and only at places where I really would have been skidding. I haven't had problem modulating the brake pressure and avoid ABS kicking in on most ice and snow, except in a couple places where I underestimated the slickness of the ice and was happy to have ABS.

Maybe one brake was sticky, and only light pressure was enough to lock it? Or maybe your ABS is confused. Or the ground was so slick (or was slick and slightly downhill) that you really were locking up with light pressure, in which case you would have had trouble stopping no matter what....

Reply to
Alan Shutko

If you're good at braking like that, wouldn't you be braking so that there was no skid, and ABS wouldn't kick in? Or is there some case where skidding is actually desired?

Reply to
Alan Shutko

My research indicates that 99% of the driving populace does NOT have the ability to outdo ABS. Period.

Reply to
Charks

You base your comments on that one incident. Go back to bed. I LOVE my ABS brakes and wil do all I can to make them COMPULSORY.

Reply to
Charks

In general, I guess ABS does make a car safer (as long as the driver does not compensate for that with more agressive driving) . I just felt that I was braking gently, and still the system kicked in. Pedal was still very high, and pressure light. That made me doubt about ABS. Maybe its a specific issue concerning that model of car. If there is snow and ice again (meanwhile its 14 celcius out here, but temperature is expected to drop again), I will try to find the point where ABS kicks in. This time on an empty street or parking lot, not with a red trafficlight in front of me...

Thank you all for the feedback.

Eric. The Netherlands

1993 Camry 2.2 auto

PS: Is there a big difference in fuel consumption between the 3.0 and the

2.2 1998 Camry automatic? Both are for sale in my area.....

"Alan Shutko" wrote:

Reply to
Eric

You do understand that your statement is meaningless? If not, check with the mechanical engineering department at a nearby university.

snipped-for-privacy@att.net Rochester Minnesota USA

Reply to
Glenn Pooler

But why? There is not one credible study that shows that on average ABS are improving safety. I have no problem with ABS being an option for people who think they are of benefit, but I think it is wrong to ram a feature of dubious value down the throats of average people because people have been deluded by component manufacturers. The cool ads are great, but the reality doesn't match the hype. I would like to restrict my anti-ABS tirade to ABS for passenger cars - trucks are a different matter.

From

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- "Test track studies evaluating the effectiveness of ABS have shown it to be an advantageous safety device. For varying pavement conditions, ABS allows the driver to maintain steering control of the vehicle while braking even during extreme panic stop conditions. However, statistical analyses of real-world collision databases suggest that the introduction of ABS has not reduced the number of automobile crashes where it was thought ABS would have proved most effective. Crash studies show increased involvement of ABS-equipped vehicles in single-vehicle crashes and less involvement in multi-vehicle crashes. Specifically the increase has been in single-vehicle run-off-road crashes such as, rollovers or impacts with fixed objects."

From

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: Even with the recent findings, the real-world advantages of antilock brakes are unproven. Over the long term, vehicles with such brakes have fared no better in overall fatal crash experience than vehicles without antilocks.

?Despite their impressive performance on the test track, there still is no evidence that antilock brakes are producing overall safety benefits,? says Institute president Brian O?Neill.

In my opinion the great benefit of ABS brakes is that they allow you to steer while panic braking, and this is also the source of the increase in many types of accidents for vehicles equipped with ABS. I believe that in many cases you are better off plowing straight ahead into an object rather than making a poor decision to take a last second swerve - often into opposing traffic or off the road. For a trained driver, who is able to make good decisions, ABS can be an advantage. However, it is an expensive option that is probably of very little advantage to people who know how to use them, since they probably already know how to handle panic situations. In other words, if you are a good enough driver to get an advantage from ABS, you probably don't need it. If you are only a marginally competent driver, on average they probably aren't going to save you. However, if you feel the cost is justified, good for you. Go for them. Just don't try to ram them down my throat. BTW, I do think rear ABS is a good idea for pick-up and SUVs that have a significant load carrying capacity since it allow the rear brakes to be large enough to handle the loaded condition, but not prematurely lock when the vehicle is unloaded.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Already done that. Next?

Reply to
Charks

I heard these same excuses when seat belts came out, then padded dashes, than shoulder belts, then air bags...front then side. Some people are too cheap and/or egotistical to realize than technology, properly applied with knowledge, can be their friend. Get over yourself.

Reply to
Charks

I'm sorry, I've got better things to do then play games. Either you are an ME with published research papers in this field or not. If so, post something meaningful.

snipped-for-privacy@att.net Rochester Minnesota USA

Reply to
Glenn Pooler

Stay in your blinkered state of denial, then. I KNOW that I like my ABS equipped Camry and I KNOW that on any future vehicle I buy, I will INSIST that it be equipped with ABS. End of debate.

Reply to
Charks

I support your right to have ABS as an option. How about supporting my right to not be saddled with something I consider an expensive feature that is of little/no value.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Fine, but sign a waiver that if you smash into anything, it will be YOUR responsibility.

Reply to
Charks

Ok.... YOU sign a waiver that if you smash into anything where braking -would- have prevented property damage, it will be YOUR responsibility.

Reply to
Philip®

The difference is that in the case of seat belts et al, there were studies that proved they were effective. There are no studies that prove that ABS is on average an effective safety device. It is an expensive gadget. You are wrong to trying to validate your decision to spend a lot of money on a marginally useful gadget by trying to ram it down my throat. ONCE AGAIN - I don't care if you waste your money on ABS. Just quit trying to claim it is a safety device. It isn't. It it was, there would be statistics that prove it is saving lives. There are no statistics that support this claim.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

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