Details below, but I now suspect that I have found a "new" starting problem relating to the ignition key. One of the reasons is that this was the only time in 5 years that I have left the key in the ignition switch (at OFF) for several hours, just before trying to start.
The car is a 2007 Camry LE, 50K miles, with never any problems. Battery is the original, but seems in good condition. Weather was a perfect shirt-sleeve day.
1)I started the car, but it ran for only a few seconds, and died.
2)I immediately tried starting again, but now it would not start.
3)I waited a while and tried again; results same as 1)
4)I let the car roll back a few feet in the driveway and tried again. Same results as 1)
5)I tried pumping the gas as soon as possible after it started, but to no effect. It died again.
6)Finally the car started, stayed running, and correctly responded to my pumping the gas. I kept it running for a minute or so, just in case the battery needed charging from the earlier attempts (none of which was longer that about 6 seconds).
So I borrowed an OBDC tool from my neighbor. But since the check-engine light never came on, there never was a code set. This is consistent with my guess that the ignition key simply disconnected. The tool responds to show that the engine speed increases when I pump the gas.
I got some books from the library, but they are talking about things like no gas, loose connections, air leak between intake manifold and throttle body, none of which seem applicable.
There has never been a problem before, or since (the car was driven several hundred miles, some of it on unpaved roads in poor weather, on the next day). I would be perfectly happy, but I hate to drive around thinking I might be stuck in the boondocks with a dead car, all because of strange problems in my driveway, on just one day out of 5 years.
On the left side cowl is the Instrument Panel Junction Block. It is just aft of the left side headlight. It contains various fuses. One is the 10 A ignition fuse. I suspect the fuse is intermittent or the contacts in the Junction Block need to be cleaned and 're-formed'.
Advise keep a multimeter in the car and check the voltage on both sides of that fuse with the key on, when the intermittent crops up again. Same is true for the 'ignition No 1' and 'ignition No 2' fuses and the IG1 relay located on the Instrument Panel Junction Block located behind the dash board on the left side.
Other than that, I have no idea. :)
--Winston
If the fuse and Junction Block are OK during the fault, you will want to tap into pin 7 of the II
What is the II? I could not find a reference to pin 7.
More generally, first of all, thanks for the response. I was afraid I would get no help, so I also reported the problem to Toyota's 800 number. I know they just want me to take the car to a dealer, but the dealer would say "no code, no problem". They have taken the problem under advisement.
Your response opened my mind up to some new approaches to the problem. (One difficulty I have is that the Chilton's book from the library only goes to 2005, so I have to expect some differences.)
I was a little disappointed in the instrument panel junction box (which the book calls the engine room j/b). That year, the fuse layout is not exactly the same as even pictured on the underside of the cover. Some of the hoped for fuse locations are empty.
At the fuses near the drivers knee, there is only one labelled IGN (I don't know if it is supposed to be IGN1 or IGN2, if it matters). And I could not find the ignition relay.
The bottom line is that the fuses looked so clean that I hesitated to even pull and immediately replace amy fuse. Especially since the car has run OK for several days and several hundred miles, I figure, "if it aint broke, don't fix".
I still suspect the problem is something with the way the key affected some contacts, but you alerted me to concentrate on the different selector positions. For example, what if it STARTED in drive, and the selector returned to RUN, but then vibrated a little toward ACC? Unlikely, but I should keep an open mind.
Also, it brought to mind a problem a friend had years ago, with the car starting but not running. That was in the days before computers, when the START position gave the full 12 volts, but the RUN position had a resistor in series, so that the spark plugs would receive a lesser high voltage when things were running properly. all that just for reference.
So at present, no further action is needed. I have a very remote hope that Toyota will give some response.
Sorry. One of the 12-pin plastic connectors that snaps into the Instrument Panel Junction Box is labeled II on the official Toyota service manual. (Page 31, Pub. EM0250U). Pin 7 of that connector brings 'ign' power to the rest of the car. You should see more than 12 VDC on that pin when the car is running. Which model? 2GR-FE or 2AZ-FE?
See if you can get a copy of the Official Toyota Manual. Most 3rd party books are fairly useless.
Big mistake, Brendan.
Even professional wrenches are sometimes fooled by a great-looking but broken electrical parts. Please remove, inspect and test each fuse and relay in the circuit before doing much else.
Your multimeter is your friend here.
After you remove each suspect fuse and relay in turn, carefully inspect the contacts on the parts and in the fuse block for signs of corrosion. All contacts should be clean and shiny.
If you can snap a picture of your junction box, I can show you where to look for your IG2 relay. (Lower left corner of this diagram:)
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Also the 10th fuse down on the left side:
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The IG1 relay is located on the lower right corner of the Instrument Panel Junction Box located under the dashboard in front of your left knee.
It's broke.
Intermittent problems like this one are the most challenging that repair people face. You will want to familiarize yourself with all the test points so that you can quickly isolate the problem with your multimeter, next time it crops up.
Your multimeter will tell you what is going on. Theory is great but you must gather some information first.
They will tell you, "bring in the car and we will look at it."
Please ask other Toyota owners in your area for recommendations of good independent repair shops. I am blessed with one only 10 miles away.
I am sorry for the delay. I had kind of given up on the problem, and we had company for over a week
it is 2az-fe >
I am from the aged, helpless, no-camera generation. I can show you where
The above is in the "engine room". The picture is much more correct than what is printed inside the cover of my junction block. Indeed, it is printed upside-down from that cover. But, my IG2 relay does not exist in that spot, nor does the IG2 20-amp fuse exist; the spot is also empty.
The above is near the driver's left knee. What this picture shows is also upside-down from what is printed on the cover. So what you have called "10th down on left" I would call "10th up on right"; of course it partly depends on how you perform the impossible scrunch down under the steering wheel; I did not attempt to take off any of the dash board to get at things while sitting in the driver's seat (like triggering the air bag !).
I was brave enough to remove the fuse, inspect it, and replace it. I did not do this with the engine running, because I was afraid of generating a code, turning on the MIL light, and being unable to erase it (which makes you fail inspection here in Massachusetts).
After that, the engine did start and run OK, as usual, here in the driveway.
I cannot identify this box. Is it above the fuse block (and becoming even more inaccessible, as I lie upside down)? There are wires, connectors, and lots of white plastic, none of which look like the correct thing to me, nor enticing to play with, nor easy to get at.
I still have to say, I think I am going to just leave things alone. The only thing which is at all accessible is the IGN fuse near my knee; even to get that out I had to open up the engine room junction box to get at a convenient little plastic fuse puller which they store there with some spare fuses. It is just as easy to simply inspect and/or replace that, than carry around an ohm-meter.
dealer? (We used to have an independent here in town who had some ex-Toyota-dealer techs, but the place closed.) Our dealer (Lexington Mass.) never advertises; a saleslady told me all their cars are sold before they arrive. My impression is that they probably make more money these days by servicing (at high price) everything they have sold over the years.
So again, thanks. I am sorry to disappoint the excellent help by not following the advice. But to my mind, I am being cautious, and SO FAR have not regretted it.
Please get recommendations of a reliable decent independent repair shop in your area from other Toyota owners. They can isolate and repair the intermittent quickly and relatively painlessly. If the dealers in your area are anything like the dealers in my area, you will want to avoid them.
Please pick up the factory service manual for the best possible information.
If it can crank the engine long enough for the car to start, the battery is sufficiently charged (but of course you did the right thing at the end, letting it run to recharge the battery from what it used when you were trying to start it.)
Weather was a
But it cranked? The engine turned over at a normal speed?
If not, it could be a sign of a battery problem, unrelated to how well charged the battery is. I had a battery with a short or an open.. In my case the battery worked fine until it got quite hot, when the voltage dropped a lot and the car would not crank at all. It took maybe 45 minutes to cool off and then it started fine. It took me about 5 starts over 3 days to figure out it was t he battery. . Thatt's probaqbly not your problem since it didnt' have time to get hot, but if the car doesn't turn over at normal speed, I'd measure the voltage at the two battery posts. Even though they were good only
2 minutes earrlier. Lots of wierd things happen and what gets one out of trouble is having an organized attack on the problme. Should be
12.6 volts or so when sitting idle, not trying to start.
Another diistictiion betwwen your car and mine that time is that your car stalls after it is running. Mine didn't do that, but otoh, you could have two problems. One the stalling and the other a bad battery IF your car doesn't crank at your number 2.
That's got to be because of elapsed time. I don't think rolling the car a few feet can do anything.
I don't think pumping is so effective since cars had fuel injection. When cars had carburetors, pumping the gas moved what was called an accelerator pump within the carburetor. One pump stroke for every down stroke of the accelerator pedial. You could actually look down the throat of the carburetor and see a jet of gasoline going into the carb when you moved the metal rod connected to the accelerator pedal. That doesn't happen anymore, And aiui there is no point at all to pumping the accelerator when the car isn't running. However, now, pushing the pedal down farther when the car is running should cause more gas to be injected in the cycllinders for as long as the pedal is farther down. If the pedal is farther down when the car starts, also more gas wiill be injected than if the pedal were higher.
Of course ;-) you should do this in neutral or park, or on the highway when no one is in front of you.
It was still a good idea to check the codes. IIRC, there are sometimes pending codes, when the computer senses a bad value but doesn't rush to turn the light on.
Do you mean the ignition switch that is controlled by the key?
That's because the average location of the pedal is farther down when you put it farther down and lift it up. You could get the same result by putting the pedal half-way between where you would normally have the pedal and where your maximum down pump position is.
I don't think the roads or t he weather at another time make any difference. Spark plug wires can absorb humidity and not work well, but your car runs okay until it stallss, right.
I agree. You should fix it.
IF you're getting a manual, there are several possibile factory manuals. I think you woululd want the 2007 Toyota Camry Electrical Wiring Manual. That's a separate manual for my 2000, so I suppose it is for you too. You can buy new but you can also often find them on ebay, for less money. I find the Toryota electrical manual a lot harder to read than Ford, GM, or Chrysler manuals, so I guarantee it will take you quite a while to understand a lot of it.
From your second post:
That's a shame but not reall surprising.
If there are supposed to be two ign fuses they should both be good. You could sit with the manual for a hal hour trying to follow the wires and figure out which does what, but basically both fuses should be good. All your fuses should be good, and if not you should know what doesn't work because of that. (My rear window defogger isn't working.)
You can also use a voltmeter to see if both ends of the fuse are hot,** about the same as a measurement taken right at the two battery posts. You need to find a good ground in the passenger compartment. IIRC, I still havent' found one in my 2000 Camry Solara. but if worst comes to worst, I'll run a wire outsiide of the car from an engine compartment ground. Still there must be better places near the fusebox. I didn't have much time last fall.
**If your probes are too big to get into the little holes at each end of the plastic top of the fuse, you can use a hat pin, corsage pin, or the kind of straight pin that new shirts have in them, and you can attach a piece of wire with an alligator clip to the pin head, and the other end of the wire to one of the voltmeter (mulitmeter) probles. Radio Shack sells a bag of 10 in five different colers for 3 or 4 dollars. They have loads of uses.
So jiiggle the key when the car is running to see if it stops, and when it is about to stop to see if it starts up again. That might show something. Although I still don't know why you suspect the ignition switch. Did you ever say?
Heavy keyrings have been known to cause ignition switch problems in some cars, not especially toyotas, but that's very heavy and after years.
You mean started in Start.
Ah, you do know things. That was called the ballast resistor, and it was out of the ignition primary circuit for Start and in the circuit for Run.
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