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- Built_Well
June 12, 2009, 11:30 pm
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According to the Genuine Fluids page at an online service garage called
Arts Automotive:
"Toyota is claiming their Type T-IV ATF does not need to be replaced
under 'normal operating conditions'. We strongly disagree. We recommend
changing Type T4 fluid every 15K miles, just like regular ATF. Type T4
is not particularly expensive, and the total cost of a transmission
drain and fill is only slightly more than a motor oil change." [end quote]
What do the Toyota experts here think? Should I just do a partial
drain-and-fill (no flushing) of the ATF now after 24,000 miles on my
'06 Camry, or just wait for 100,000 miles or perhaps 60,000 miles.
The car is 3.5 years old, and I didn't notice any bad odor or
discoloration of the red ATF when I looked at it yesterday via
the dipstick.
That was an ATF question, but the following concerns coolant.
The web site for Arts Automotive (a service garage) has this to say
about Toyota's Super Long Life coolant:
"We recommend replacing the coolant every 2-3 years or 30K, even with
Toyota Super Long Life Coolant. We think it's better to be safe than
sorry. Maybe we'll sing a different tune when Toyota releases their
Super-Duper Long Life Coolant :) [end quote]
Why would the Camry manual allow you to go 100,000 miles or 10 years
with the factory fill of Toyota Super Long Life coolant, but only
allow you to go 5 years or 50,000 miles with every refill thereafter.
I would guess both the factory fill and your own refills are
pre-diluted with distilled water, not tap water--at least if you buy
the jugs of genuine Toyota 50/50 coolant.
Anyway, is 50,000 miles and 5 years still too long to wait? Maybe
I ought to do a simple drain-and-fill (not flush) of the coolant every
3 years or 30,000 miles?
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:30:42 -0500, Built_Well
Any recommendations that exceed what the manufactuer reccommends and
that are made by a garage that makes money by doing services, esp
maint, are suspect. They are just looking to line their pockets. If
the manufactuer says 100K you will be very safe doing it at half that
if you want extra security. Same for the coolant.
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
Dipstick always look better than the drained oil I must say from
experience. How does it look on clean tissue *compared* to new fluid
on clean tissue?
Toyota doesn't expect the first owner to keep their cars past about 4
years. If that fits you, by all means stick to the factory schedule
and save money. However, if you keep a car longer than that, as in
"2005 the overall median age for automobiles was 8.9 years", then you
may want to perform more frequent preventative maintenance on it.
The Type IV ATF is just a re-labeled conventional (dino) Mobil-3309
ATF. Nothing special about it. For about the same price I'd rather use
Mobil-1 Fully Synthetic ATF (the new formulation). I'd think Mobil
knows that it's Mobil-1 ATF is compatible with it's dino Mobil-3309.
Conventional ATF usually don't last over 50-60K miles under normal
service. So 30K miles under normal service for a dino oil would be a
*safe bet*, since Aisin transmission like to load up the fluild with
particles, so 15K isn't unreasonable on the A-series and indeed is
what Toyota specified for severe service.
However, T-IV is for the U-series clunkers that don't seem to put as
much crap into the fluid as the older A-series. So maybe 30K? You
decide. Synthetics are good for 100-120K miles under normal service.
However, 60K miles under severe service. Maybe use Mobil-1 in your
refill?
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
john wrote:
I'd prefer to use T-IV (or 3309) since it is correct for the
application. All of the miracle ATFs out there seem to indicate that
*they* "recommend" them for use in virtually every transmission ever
created. That's not good enough for me or my customers. Realistically,
I do agree that their synthetic product is probably protective, durable,
and friction modified enough for satisfactory use in T-IV applications,
but why take the chance? For a $2 per bottle savings?
My experience seems to differ, but maybe I'm not as observant as you are
(sarcasm not intended). I find the T-IV in "Super ECT" trannys to get
darkened by friction material as fast as the A series trannys used to.
The fluid still appears to remain in great shape (though dark) as long
or longer than the old A series with D-III though.
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
Toyota pre-mixed Pink, which is basically half of GM's Dexcool
(without the fast acting 2EHA plasticizer acid), showed "significant
weight loss" (metal corrosion) in lab tests. It's not as good a
corrosion fighter as the red, but the red has the disadvantage of just
a 2-year service life.
If you plan to trade in the car after 4 years, no need to change the
coolant. Otherwise I personally would do at 3-4 years for 5-year
coolants (Pink, Dexcool, Preston All-Makes, G12, G-05, etc). Some
people even drive with 200K mile old timing belt. Your call.
Generally you don't want 2EHA in cooling systems not properly designed
to work with it. So stick with Red or Pink.
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
John G Dole wrote:
========
Thanks JohnGdole for your great posts! You've certainly given me lots
to think about :-)
Do you have a link for the report that showed "significant weight loss
(metal corrosion) in lab tests" of the newer pink Toyota Super Long Life
coolant? You mentioned the pink Super Long Life isn't as good of a
corrosion fighter as the older red Long Life, but the pink Super doesn't
have to be replaced every 2 years like the red.
And thanks a million for mentioning that head bolt loosening "glitch."
You also mentioned that Toyota's "Type IV ATF is just a re-labeled
conventional (dino) Mobil-3309 ATF. Nothing special about it. For about
the same price I'd rather use Mobil-1 Fully Synthetic ATF (the new
formulation). I'd think Mobil knows that it's Mobil-1 ATF is compatible
with it's dino Mobil-3309." [end quote]
I've been reading that some folks are using Amsoil's Synthetic ATF in
place of the Toyota Type IV in their cars. Do you know if the Amsoil
synthetic ATF is compatible with the '06 Camry's transmission?
Would it be okay to simply do a drain-and-fill with the Amsoil ATF?
This would result in my Camry's ATF fluid being about 40 percent
Amsoil and about 60 percent Toyota T-IV, since about 60 percent of
the ATF is found in the torque converter, which isn't drained when
performing a simple drain and fill. Or would a full flush be
required to get all the T-IV ATF out of the car before introducing
the Amsoil synthetic ATF?
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
"Results of industry standard tests of the new Toyota extended-life
coolant now show a
substantial weight loss (corrosion), both in a 50-50 mix and in a 33%
coolant mixture (solder corrosion is much greater in this more diluted
solution)."
Read the article from Motor.com, among other excellent articles there,
Aug 2004, and learn about things such as the 2EHA acid and its
challenges to poorly designed cooling system:
http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/082004_04.pdf
I recall reading something about 20-30 times acceptable level (which
is 1mg/cm^2/week). Been Googling but couldn't find this particular
article. So yes, under perfect circumstances you can lose 1mg of metal
per cm^2 per week!! "Slowly but surely".
I personally would prefer Mobil-1 over the reportedly excellent Amsoil
or Redline or Royal Purple. Because Mobil-1 and 3309 are both made by
Mobil. And I think Mobil uses its own additive package.
Valvoline primarily uses excellent additive packages from Lubrizol.
People say Shell and Warren Unilube (Walmart SuperTech) use that as
well (not sure). And IMO Valvoline has an excellent product line.
Amsoil probably uses an additive package by somebody -- maybe
Lubrizol, Afton or Oronite (Division of Chevron). Companies can buy
synthetic stock, mix it with an additive package and sell it.
http://www.lubrizol.com/Lubzoil .
I don't think there is a need to flush ATF (but you should not mix
different coolants). As for mixing ATF: "Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is also
compatible with conventional ATFs."
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Other_Products/Mobil_1_Synthet=
ic_ATF.aspx
You can actually call Mobil up or email them on their "Ask Mobil"
section about Mobil-1 and 3309.
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
John G Dole wrote:
Built_Well wrote:
John G Dole wrote:
====================
John, that's a great article, but the reason the Toyota extended-life
pre-mix pink coolant showed "a substantial weight loss (corrosion)" in
the lab test is that the test was performed on radiators and heater
cores made of * copper brass * and which used lead solder (in other
words, old-fashioned, cheap radiators and heater cores).
I don't think the modern * aluminum * radiators and heater cores that
Toyota uses, for example in the Camry, have any copper brass and
lead solder in them at all. Ray O can correct me if I'm wrong.
Regarding the 2-EHA acid that GM's DexCool uses, Toyota is staunchly
opposed to using 2-EHA in coolant. The 2-EHA is also not fast-acting.
The article states that 2-EHA is "very stable and lasts a long time"
but it "takes thousands of miles to become fully effective in
protecting coolant passages." It's actually the phosphates that are
used in Toyota's coolants that are fast-acting, not 2-EHA. According
to the article:
"Extensive Japanese tests have shown phosphates to be a good corrosion
inhibitor for aluminum, and particularly effective in protecting water
pumps from corrosion after cavitation erosion/corrosion."
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
news:4a35a159$0$57669
It could be disastrous to have galvanic couples between copper or brass,
and aluminum.
There are a lot of problems with the organic acid inhibitors. Protection of
aluminum can be an especially difficult problem, as DexCool users found
out. The Hybrid OAT technology reintroduces silicate, at lower levels than
in the green formulates, which was one of the few efficient inhibitors for
aluminum.
Phosphates or phosphate esters can work miracles in some systems, particular
where steel is involved. And, it doesnt take much to do the job. I havent
tested some of the newer phosphate ester chemistry against aluminum, and
cant comment.
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
BTW, your 06 Camry with the 2.4L engine? It has the problem of head
bolt coming loose because 1-3 head bolt threads disintegrate in the
back near the manifold insulation.
Is this corrosion from water jacket? Don't know, but it typically
happens between 50-100K miles, even maintained at the dealer. Looks
like Toyota wants to charge owners $4000-6000 to replace the engine if
out of warranty. Good luck.
Posted by: mag176
The car was dealer maintained for the first 47,000 miles, I took it
over after that because we moved. What the tech is telling me is that
the gasket blew because the head bolts are loose. They are pulling the
threads right out of the block. Itâ80=99s going to have a short block
installed later in the week. Im told they are fixing the ones that are
caught under warranty, tough luck to everyone else. If anyone can hook
me up with info about other owners,tsb or any like info I would
appreciate it.
Thanks again, Mark
Full thread:
http://www.camryforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3D1301
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
In the first year or two of the 2AZ-FE's production, the block threads
weren't formed completely to the top of the holes. That was corrected
and I never saw a headbolt problem after that. This 2004 Camry post
would seem to disagree with my ascertation, but the main problem was
addressed early on. The 2004 is probably a fluke, not representative
of the later models. Speaking of small samples, I'm running a 2001
Highlander with 110k miles and no problems so far - and have never
*thought* about the potential headbolt problem even once (until
now) :-)
Toyota MDT in MO
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
Toyota MDT in MO wrote:
==========
Thanks for your post. Makes me feel better :-)
Wish I could say I was completely freed of concern, though. Like that
writer at either CamryForums.com or ToyotaNation.com , I had visions of
my Camry living to 300,000 miles or 500,000 miles. Now not so sure :-(
Does your '01 Highlander have the plastic intake manifold with foam
rubber insulation between the manifold and block/head like the
problem Toyotas, or an aluminum manifold? One speculation is this
cheaper plastic manifold is causing a high heat spot which can lead to
3 nearby head bolts working loose. Maybe it's a combination of factors
at play: the plastic manifold with foam rubber insulation and the
ill-formed threads that you mentioned.
An '01 Lexus car was described as having its head bolts work loose, too.
Don't know if the Lexus used a plastic intake manifold.
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:01:35 -0500, Built_Well wrote:
Ford Windstar 3.8L with plastic intake.
Ford solves the problem of the rear bank of cylinders loosing the gasket
on this model, then they install a plastic manifold.
Here in Mass we have mandated Ethanol in the fuel.
Seems the plastic Ford used in the early days didn't get along with
Ethanol very well...
Re: Coolant and ATF fluid changes on Toyota
Built_Well wrote:
If you take care of it then your goal shouldn't be a problem.
Yes, the intake is plastic. That's an interesting theory that I can't
shoot down, but would suspect it is grasping at straws. The most
obvious and certain contributor to pulled head bolts was the early
blocks with no threads at the top (deck) surface. On these problem
engine blocks Helicoils can be installed, and their serviceability is
excellent. It's a little tricky to get the HC tap that deep, but a
standard tap can be modified with an extension and a little welding.
No Lexus has a xAZ-FE engine, let alone a 4 cylinder (US destination) so
this particular instance is total apples and oranges. Any engine could
suffer loose head bolts, due to design or previous installation issues.
--
Toyota MDT in MO
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