New initiate to OIL CHANGE CLUB

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Ray O, I was surprised to learn this, but Amsoil does apparently carry 2 lines of API-*certified* oil: one gasoline line and one diesel line, according to the Wikipedia entry on AMSOIL.

The gasoline engine line of API-certified products begins with XL. The 5w-30 viscosity would be XLF.

Some of the Wiki entry:

"Another common misconception is that motor oils must be API certified in order to meet warranty requirements. The fact is, lubricants are not required to be certified by the API, only meet or exceed API specifications. An API license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench tests that include physical, chemical and engine tests.

"API licensing was originally developed for mineral-based oils. Petroleum motor oil companies can take advantage of the convenience and flexibility associated with base stock interchange, which allows them to buy petroleum base stocks from any number of suppliers without being required to re-test and re-certify their products. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. Most synthetic base stocks, on the other hand, are supplier specific and base stock interchange is not allowed. If, for instance, if AMSOIL wanted to blend an API-approved motor oil using the same type of base stock from a different supplier, the oil would have to be re-tested and re-certified."

Reply to
Built_Well
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That entry is incorrect. Totally incorrect. Actually it's a bald-faced lie.

The reason that Amsoil doesn't have certification on all of their products is simply because the products don't meet the API specification because they have too much ZDP and hence too much phosphorus (which is limited by the API because it poisons the catalytic converter).

Here's an e-mail from Amsoil that explains it (I'm sure this person got into a lot of trouble for letting the truth slip out):

------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Selbrede, Byron" To: "' snipped-for-privacy@pinn.net'" Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:15 -0500

"Actually it's the amount of phosphorus that is regulated-- but that is directly related to the amount of zinc that can be used as they are combined as zinc dithio phosphate (ZDP). This is only regulated in 2 viscosity grades, 5W30 and 10W30. Other than the Series 7500, AMSOIL lubes all contain more ZDP than can be used in an API licensed oil. For examples of our ZDP levels refer to data sheets for AMO, ARO, AMF or AMV."

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Some people may feel that a shorter catalytic converter life is worth the extra engine protection afforded by the higher level of ZDP, but you never know what kind of excuses an automaker will come up with to get out of performing warranty service, even when the problem is unrelated to something like the oil. The best bet is to avoid non-certified oils until the end of the warranty, including the emissions warranty.

Remember, the warranty fore emissions related components is 8 years/

80,000 miles. Avoid non-API oils during this time. Use one of the Amsoil API certified synthetic base stock oils, or one of the many other certified synthetic base stock oils. They're all pretty much the same when you're using them on something like a Camry, which doesn't have a high performance engine (of course an oil with mineral base stock is also just as good).
Reply to
SMS

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8 years? According to Edmunds.com: "Emissions equipment is required by Federal law to be covered for five years or 50,000 miles."

Are you saying Toyota warrants emissions equipment for

3 years longer than federal law requires? That would be great if it's the case.

Well, I had been considering using Amsoil's XLF next time since it is API-certified, but I really want to use the ASL (which is also 5w-30 like XLF), but has a higher TBN value, meaning more zinc and other good stuff.

You don't think using ASL for 6 or 12 months is going to hose a catalytic converter, do ya? I just wanna hear how my engine sounds and feel how the car runs with the ASL in it. Once I experience that, I'll probably go back to Pennzoil Platinum, or put in the API-certified Amsoil XLF.

Reply to
Built_Well

If you spin the plug from the top, not underneath, your arm usually stays dry.

If you cannot accomplish that, try to find an oil that contains underarm deoderant.

Reply to
*

No, Edmunds is incorrect.

"

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No. It just shortens the life of the overall life of the converter. Maybe instead of 150K miles you'll get 75K or 100K miles, there's no hard and fast rule. If you don't have emissions testing where you are then you'll never know if your converter is hosed.

I just wanna hear

LOL, you think you're going to be able feel or hear a difference with Amsoil versus Mobil 1?

Reply to
SMS

I do see the 8 years mentioned at the EPA site. I suppose EPA is more reliable than Edmunds ;-) Here's the link to the Edmunds quote about 5 years or 50,000 miles:

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The following quote is found at the end of the second paragraph on that page:

"Emissions equipment is required by Federal law to be covered for five years or 50,000 miles."

Well, you never know. I might detect a difference in engine sound and performance between Pennzoil Platinum and Amsoil ASL. I did hear a change in engine sound (same sound volume, different sound frequency), when I switched from Mobil 1 to Pennzoil Platinum, but of course, the biggest difference was switching from conventional to synthetic (much quieter).

They're all very good oils. It'll be fun to try Amsoil ASL or XLF.

Who knows I might even gain an extra 1 or 1.5 miles per gallon with Amsoil. Folks are raving about the new Amsoil 0w-30, but I will stick with 5w-30 in case Toyota were to give me grief about the viscosity change if I ever had to use their 5-year drive train warranty, which I know we all doubt.

Reply to
Built_Well

About a two years ago, the check engine light came on for my 1998 Camry V6. At that time car was just under 8 years old and had 63,000 miles.

Dealer told me it was a bad charcoal canister, and they replaced it for free under the emissions warranty.

Reply to
Mark A

Yeah, the folks raving about it are the dealers, looking for new victims...uh I mean customers.

Reply to
SMS

As I mentioned before, IMO, AMSOIL's web site is a little disingenuous in that their oil is recommended (but they don't say who is making the recommendation - I assume it is AMSOIL) if a particular API standard is required by the automaker. AMSOIL does not say that their oil meets API standards. That is a big difference when it comes to warranty coverage.

Toyota states that you should use oil that meets API specifications, not "oil that the oil supplier says it OK to use if a particular API specification is called for." I'll say this again: if you want Toyota to warrant your engine, use oil that meets the proper API specifications and has the API star on the package. If you are not concerned with your factory warranty and are comfortable with using a product that the product's makers have to use word games to get people to use it and are confident that the oil maker will warrant your engine, then go ahead and use the other product. BTW, during my 15 years working for the automaker, I have never seen an oil supplier, API certified or not, replace an engine for a customer under their warranty. For MY personal vehicles, I stick with oil that meets API specifications.

Reply to
Ray O

Do you have a reputable source for those claims? Wikipedia isn't reputable, and in that article it doesn't even seem reputable. Somebody once listed the costs of API certification, and they weren't that much. Does AMsoil price its API-certified oils higher than its noncertified ones?

And why should I trust AMsoil, a company that's claimed its synthetic oils improve fuel economy, while Exxon-Mobil says that their Mobil 1 synthetic improve it "not one bit"? I seriously doubt that AMsoil has technology that Exxon-Mobil lacks.

Reply to
larry moe 'n curly

Is it really going to make a difference? Because when Consumer Reports tested conventional and synthetic oils over a decade ago, they found no significant differences in engine wear -- for any of the oils tested (all API SH).

I've used synthetic only twice and only because it was cheaper than conventional oil, $0.06/qt. the first time, $0.38/qt.next time, compared to $0.49/qt. for the conventional that I recently purchased. I passed on a $1.49/qt. synthetic deal.

Reply to
larry moe 'n curly

Well-stated Roy.

I think the most amusing part of the whole Amsoil thing is when they start quoting Magnusson-Moss out of context, and then promise to go to bat for any customer that is denied warranty coverage. How'd you like to be waiting for the battle between Amsoil and Toyota to play out while you're waiting for your vehicle to be repaired?

Again, in a rare incident of honesty from Amsoil, probably unauthorized, the actual reason for the lack of API certification on most of their products slipped out:

------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Selbrede, Byron" To: "' snipped-for-privacy@pinn.net'" Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:18:15 -0500

"Actually it's the amount of phosphorus that is regulated-- but that is directly related to the amount of zinc that can be used as they are combined as zinc dithio phosphate (ZDP). This is only regulated in 2 viscosity grades, 5W30 and 10W30. Other than the Series 7500, AMSOIL lubes all contain more ZDP than can be used in an API licensed oil. For examples of our ZDP levels refer to data sheets for AMO, ARO, AMF or AMV."

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What I don't understand is why Amsoil doesn't just market the API certified oils for vehicles that require them, and market their other oils, those with higher phosphorus levels, for vehicles without catalytic converters. No one would think any worse of them for explaining the real facts behind API certification, rather than making up a ridiculous story.

Reply to
SMS

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Ray O and SMS, your responses always help clarify matters. Thank you both for the knowledge you bring.

Larry, Moe, and Curly, that _Consumer Reports_ article from

1996 only studied mid-grade oils. It didn't include any low-end oils like the store-brand names or high-end oils like Amsoil. Also, the authors of the report have been criticized for not including any UOAs (used oil analyses) in their study--not a single UOA.

And of course, the taxi cabs studied in that old _Consumer Reports_ article from 1996 experienced very few cold starts--unlike the vast majority of drivers' cars. The taxi cabs basically were in use all day and night, so they had very few cold starts. 90 percent of engine wear occurs during cold start-ups. 80 percent of wear may happen in the cold startup itself, and another 10 percent during the 20 or

30 minutes it takes to bring a 30-weight oil down to a useful viscosity of roughly between 9 and 12 centiStokes at an engine operating temperature of about 212 F.
Reply to
Built_Well

....Sorry, forgot to add: That study, iirc, came to an end after only 60,000 miles. At only 60k miles, the rebuilt engines were dismantled and examined. They should have waited to at least 80 or 100,000 miles. And again, not a single UOA was taken. Just lots and lots of problems with that old CR study. These are but a few of them.

Usually _Consumer Reports_ does a good job, but they really dropped the ball on that one. They haven't done another oil study since 1996 [chuckle].

Reply to
Built_Well

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Ray O, you are a careful reader and expertly picked up on Amsoil's "recommended" statement as meaning that they are the ones who are probably doing the recommending [chuckle].

So I asked at BobIsTheOilGuy.com if anyone had any bottles of Amsoil's XL line, including XLF which is what I'm thinking of using. Those guys at BobIsTheOilGuy are nuts about their oil, and have tried just about everyting. A couple guys confirmed for me that Amsoil's XLF bottle does indeed have the API star symbol on it.

I really wanted to try ASL, but will probably stick to trying XLF. But Ray, you very astutely picked up on the fact that Amsoil's own web page for XLF does not say that XLF is API- certified. Only the writer at Wikipedia said XLF is API-certified. However, I think we can trust the 2 guys at Bob's when they say their bottles of XLF have the API symbol on them. Thanks again Ray for your careful examination of the Amsoil web site!

Reply to
Built_Well

Hahahah... I never heard anyone describe an oil change that way! I've been ruining shirts, staining garage floors, cracking my head and burning my fingers for years. Welcome to the club. Oops, gotta go - my oil needs changing. jor

Reply to
jor

See "

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" for the Amsoil products which are API certified. The XLF is just the designator for the XL 5W30. It is API certified.

Amsoil's in a tough situation regarding API certification. They can't make a big deal of the fact that the XL line is API certified, because it leaves people wondering why their other products are not certified. Nowhere on their web site do they explain the actual reason why their other products are unable to qualify for certification, because that would scare away potential customers. Personally I'd steer clear of Amsoil completely because of the lengths they have gone to in order to obscure the facts about motor oil, API, etc. I just don't trust them.

Reply to
SMS

Your premise that the store-brand oils are low-end, and that Amsoil is high-end, has no basis in fact.

Reply to
SMS

I was thinking aloe vera myself.

Reply to
clifto

I've been thinking about trying the ASL because it's a PAO oil (API Group IV). Since the XLF is a Group III and I already have Group III in the car (Pennzoil Platinum), I may just opt for the ASL in 6 months. Anybody tried any of these oils in their cars? What do you think of them?

Although Group III is considered synthetic in the U.S., the European Union doesn't considered Group III oils to be synthetics, according to Wiki's entry for "synthetic oil," some of which is reproduced below:

Synthetic Base Stocks

Synthetic motor oils have been made from the following classes of lubricants:

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) = American Petroleum Institute (API) Group IV base oil

Synthetic esters, etc = API Group V base oils (non-PAO synthetics, including diesters, polyolesters, alklylated napthlenes, alkyklated benzenes, etc.)

Hydrocracked/Hydroisomerized = API Group III base oils. Chevron, Shell, and other petrochemical companies developed processes involving catalytic conversion of feed stocks under pressure in the presence of hydrogen into high quality mineral lubricating oil. In 2005 production of GTL (Gas-to-liquid) Group III base stocks began. The best of these perform much like polyalphaolefin [citation needed]. Group III base stocks are considered synthetic motor oil in North America[1], but not in the European Union.

Reply to
Built_Well

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