Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

should

letting

There are few if any European diesels in production without a turbo. It is as much a part of a modern diesel engine as a high pressure fuel system. A diesel engine is not a petrol engine, get over it. We are not comparing the specific power output per cubic inch of capacity here, just two engines on different fuel from the same manufacturer which a consumer will choose against each other. Many of the purchasers of the diesel will not even be aware that a turbo is fitted. Boasting of a turbo has long gone because it is there on all diesels except one, maybe a small Renault IIRC.

Who cares if an engine has a turbo or not these days? Consumers buy cars with engines which provide the power output and performance they want, whether it has a turbo or not. BMW and almost all manufacturers seldom mention whether an engine is turbocharged and never do with a diesel, because they all have them. It is no more unusual than an air cleaner. It is a means to an end. It is a part of the engine. It is completely irrelevant to the comparison of the two engines. It is a diesel engine and modern diesels have turbo's fitted in the price. They are not available without any more than a petrol engine is available without a spark ignition system. Get it now?

Huw

Reply to
Huw
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ohmygod.... there were 63 corpses and over 100 seriously injured because of methanol (methanol was sold instead of bootleg vodka) last autumn. In addition methanol is chemically aggressive and not all plastic and rubber and metals are suitable for methanol transportation

Helar

Reply to
Helar Laasik

In news:3fcdbce3 snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

Everybody who has the -option- of buying with or without. Duh.

Do you wish to gloss over my earlier / innocent inquiry about BMW's traditional view of turbos on gasoline? There are many models from all Euro manufacturers that are not allowed here due to their excessive emissions or for lack of market.

Reply to
Philip®

In news: snipped-for-privacy@enews2.newsguy.com, Dan O'Connor being of bellicose mind posted:

Well, that is an overstatement. Recall alcohol burning dragsters?

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Reply to
Philip®

See below.

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

Now that's interesting maths. Are we beyond infinity here?

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

The casualties from a fire or from poisoning? If the latter, all alcohols are toxic, it's just that ethanol is the least toxic and can be tolerated in relative small quantities (ever tried drinking pure ethanol, e.g. near-pure

95%?).

It is thought that an intermediate product in the metabolism of alcohol gives rise to poisoning (including hangovers). Not sure how that is directly relevant to the use of an alcohol as a fuel/fuel additive. Will car get drunk or go blind?

What do they do in Brazil?

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

Banned where, exactly? Were the cities listed in an earlier posting on this?

If there is a large population of older diesels then that's a different matter.

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

And other preventative maintenance work according to a schedule laid out by the manufacturer.

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

Diesels cost about the same or more to buy than petrol-engined versions, but that may change, given that the premiums have come down.

As I mentioned earlier, a diesel engine in a small car with small engine is less worthwhile than in a big car with a big engine. And mileage matters, but that doesn't seem to deter buyers in the UK, where diesel fuel is no cheaper than petrol. The percentage of diesel-engined cars does vary from country to country but, as said before, even in the UK the percentage of diesel is rising fast. In some countries diesel accounts for more than 50% of new sales.

The people buying may be following a fad or may be deluding themselves, but they are buying.

Not quite relevant here but: in the 'old diesel' days the most reliable car bar none, over perhaps two years (or more?) , as determined by ADAC, Germany's largest motorists' and breakdown organisation, was a W123 200D.

And yes, some of this argument hinges around the wish to win the Traffic Lights Grand Prix, which may be greater in California -- mainly LA area, judging by the posts here ;-) . But not every American drives 25 000 miles or more a year and needs to get to 60 mph in under 5 seconds, which is why there are substantial sales of 'European' and 'Japanese-style' cars. You may not get lots of the 1400 and 1600 cc versions, but even so....

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

Come on guys, everyone has managed to keep personal offensiveness out of this obviously passionate debate.

Let's not spoil it now.

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

In news:3fce029e$0$23817$ snipped-for-privacy@news.dial.pipex.com, Dori Schmetterling being of bellicose mind posted:

Absolutely false, DAS. Sorry. There have been many American and Japanese gasoline models sold here over the past 20+ years that have benefitted from turbo charging. Furthermore, Toyota TRD offers belt driven superchargers for an array of gasoline engines in the Toyota lineup.

Reply to
Philip®

In news:3fce0a97$0$23818$ snipped-for-privacy@news.dial.pipex.com, Dori Schmetterling being of bellicose mind posted:

Kelly quotes for a 2004 Jetta TDI 5spd GL $19,245...... for gasoline version, $18,005. I'd put my money on there being greater discounts at the dealer to "move" TDIs here. (Calif).

Reply to
Philip®

Get real Philip! Turbochargers are fitted to a tiny minority of petrol engines yet about 99% or more of today's diesels. In fact the number of factory turbo petrol engines available has probably declined over the past ten years. Are not the TRD turbo's bolt-on kits? They are not available here and would not sell in any quantity if they were. The point is, who cares if a particular component is fitted to an engine hidden under the hood? It is a means to an end and is never even mentioned on diesels any longer. All that counts is the engines power output/performance and its competitive position in a range of engines plus refinement and economy.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

gasoline

Then you might well find the diesel to be no more expensive than the petrol ;-) Hooray!

Huw

Reply to
Huw

In news:3fcf0771 snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

The point is the diesel Jetta retails for more than the comparable gasoline version. Our market will scarcely pay a dollar extra for a diesel either, hence the dealer discounts to get rid of them. Diesel cars are still the scourge of the American driving experience. Diesels have only sold well in pickup truck applications where fuel mileage using gasoline is below 10 MPGallon.

Reply to
Philip®

In news:3fcf076f snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

Geat Real, Huw! You're starting to sound quite 'Valley Girl'. ;->

I'm responding to DAS's dismissal of turbos as being ineffective on gasoline engines ... not their population. But thank you for pointing out the obvious.

TRD superchargers are "bolt-ons." What did you expect? Glue-ons with a decal? The TRD kits are application specific and .... are EPA emissions certified for street applications in California. How about that? ;-) Take a look at the TRD opening page:

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YOU don't know what -would- sell. One thing you're not Huw is a salesman. LOL.

Reply to
Philip®

Indeed, automotive diesel applications in the USA were stymied back in the '70's by VW and GM, who rushed poorly developed converted gasoline engines to market. Before that, MB sold their trusty but slow diesels here to a hardy, iconoclastic few each year. That set the public mind to thinking diesels would be reliable and thrifty...WRONG!

While the VW engine had significant quality problems, they paled in comparison to GM. Millions of customers got stuck with what amounted to junk GM vehicles whose engines basically fell apart simply because they were run. GM spent millions replacing engines, even at one point converted some of the cars back to gasoline power if the customer demanded it. By the mid-80's GM was out of the diesel business and the public was too. Only a few zealots each year buy whatever diesel MB or VW might have to offer. BMW dabbled with a few cars, all of which were sales disasters.

VW's issues were less severe but similar. Blown head gaskets, cracked blocks that allowed oil into the cooling system were but two chronic issues that affected them from 77 - 82. By the time VW moved to solve the problems the perceptions of diesels being nothing but trouble killed the market in North America. VW added a turbo to their offerings in '83 which was a help, but too little, too late.

Worse than all of the above, in the early 80's, sensing a potential gold mine of profits the oil companies praised the price of diesel to that of regular unleaded, which meant the only savings one got was in MPG. Since diesel is basically the byproduct of one of the early stages of refining, and is basically nothing but kerosene, the public knew they were being ripped off. As diesels generally sold for a premium you had a dubious cost savings proposition, plus the negatives of poor performance, hard starting, noise, smell, etc.

These days the only diesels we see here are as you say, in very large pickups and utility vehicles which would otherwise get very poor mileage using gasoline. These things are the noisiest pieces of crap imaginable, causing many of us to ask for EU noise controls. Diesels??? NYET!!!!!

Reply to
Jerry McG

about

I do think he is mistaken that they do not offer a benefit because if done properly a turbo petrol engine is very good. Saab, Volvo and Vauxhall have excellent turbo petrol engines tuned for low end torque. Some of the ones tuned for higher top end performance have awfull flat spots and are thoroughly unpleasant to drive.

But thank you for

You are very welcome.

about

Like I said, they are kits. These things compromise engine longevity and reliability when used with most engines. Factory turbo engines have all kinds of upgrades to cope with the power. They also have upgraded transaxles and brakes.

Well that shows how much you know LOL. For my sins and apart from anything else, I am deeply involved in sales and service, property and agriculture.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

MB offers the turbocharged CL, Audi several RS models, Bentley and Rolls Royce ditto, etc.

Au contraire, remember F1 and F-Indy...

Reply to
Neo

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