simple intake manifold modification?

During my web travels, I found this:

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and was wondering what y'all think.

This was meant for a carbureted system; could one vacuum hose leading to the intake manifold do a similar trick?

Basically, it's trying to blow air through a distilled water+ethanol bottle, and suck the mist under vacuum into the intake manifold. The general idea is to increase mpg, and cool down the engine slightly by sucking in moist air. (I guess the ethanol is optional...)

Thanks,

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett
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Here's my thoughts about the article, it maybe true and use for older cars using carbs, the concept of atomizing the fuel droplets mentioned in the article is somewhat similar to the technology on direct injection where Vaporized fuel is fed directly into the intake manifold and having the similar effect of increased fuel economy and power.

I'm always interested in fuel saving devices but once it says it will improve performance I start to have second thoughts. And I found a Toyota Corolla that could run on hydrogen from water and it didn't claim that car runs faster than before. The invention separates Hydrogen from water by some chemical/electrical process and feeds the hydrogen into the car. By my understanding he removed the air intake and uses pure Hydrogen. This is somehow in the internet only now but invented many years ago, I'm still doing a lot of reading if I can be convinced if its real or not, and you guys can share your thoughts as well. I'm just hear to discuss and aware that this invites many posters with "what are you an idiot, this is crap" comments.

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Reply to
EdV

What was the purpose of the hydrogen? Was it to clean out soot inside the cylinders...?

If he generated hydrogen from water from the electrical power of the alternator, the car is also working harder to produce the hydrogen (relatively inefficiently, I might add). If he generated hydrogen from home electricity and bottled it for use in the car, then he's basically making a variation on the plug-in Hybrid idea...

I'd thought that the water injection system I'd posted above resembles somewhat the Crower cycle.

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Oh well. I'm always open to new ideas...

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett

LOL! I'm reminded of a friend of mine who did this with a Plymouth Duster (the Apsen/Volare version from the late 70's) who had a gallon bucket in his back seat and ran a hose through the firewall to the carb. It used the Venturi effect of the carb to draw and vaporize the water.

Yeah, it worked. Long term? Who knows. He got sick of sloshing water all over the place and disconnected it.

But, he did say he got better economy and said tha power was amazing; but we're also talking a 318 or 340 V-8, too...

Reply to
Hachiroku

Water inj with or without ethanol does slow the combustion rate which in effect increases RON slightly. Its used in after-market turbos for that reason. It does have a positive effect. Some say it keeps the combustion-chambers clean, and there could be some truth in that. Ethanol is also an octane booster.

Jason

Reply to
Jason James

Oh that's why the ethanol... ok.

Would the timing be automatically re-adjusted by the onboard computer? I'm debating whether to try this on my '96 camry to increase mileage. Hey, even if it increases by just 1 mpg... why not.

I'm also trying to figure out which vacuum hose I should tap into, to get the stuff into the intake manifold...

Reply to
mrdarrett

Here is an article on water injection also. Check it out:

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You can probably use the port that goes to the throttle plate opener or tee into the hose coming from the charcoal canister at the throttle body? The intake hose to the bottle can probably tee into the EVAP fresh air hose so you'll get filtered air into the water bottle?

Let us know how it turns out. Maybe I'll rig mine. :)

Reply to
johngdole

A simple rig probably introduces slightly more moist air and not like a true injection system. Here is another one:

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Finally-and most significantly-the conversion of water to steam consumes heat (at a rate of about 1,100 calories per gram of the liquid) at a very critical instant. This absorption of heat prevents the temperature of combustion from rushing to a sharp peak (as it does in a standard engine) and then dropping rapidly off. Instead, the car's heat increases more slowly, reaches a lower peak, and descends much more gradually. (In addition, the longer overall combustion duration creates more pressure than does a standard engine's cycle.)

Thus water injection alone can make your engine more efficient (and gas-thrifty), but a good mechanic can easily improve upon such benefits! Goodman, for instance, runs his Fiesta at a 12.7:1 compression ratio. He can do this because the reduced temperature of combustion prevents the normal problems of pre-ignition and nitrous oxide emissions ( which are produced in a high heat environment): In fact, Pat's little Ford recently loped through the EPA's rigorous (and- at $3,000-expensive) nitrous oxide test with only half the maximum legal emissions.

Reply to
johngdole

Tee in there, huh... good idea. I probably won't get to actually doing anything about the idea for awhile... got too much stuff going on (non-car-related) at the moment. But it's good to know there are no major objections to the idea...

I was at first just thinking of sucking in the moist air above the bottle. But now, maybe sucking in the water as a mist might work...? (suck the water from the bottom of the bottle, via 1/8-inch hose, then force it through a tiny orifice, such as through a diesel injector, then pipe it to the intake manifold...

Thanks,

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett

I would think using water injector would require more precise metering than using just moist vapor. The articles, of course, focused on the use of water injection.

If even to attempt it, I'd start with moist vapor with the fish tank bubbler suggested, or maybe rig a humidifier (ultrasound cold mist type) in the intake air box after the filter so it's not ruined. But then you has to watch out for moisture corrosion, etc, etc, etc.

Yawn, maybe some other day.

Reply to
johngdole

Nope, he used hydrogen as fuel.

Well that was his "invention" it was able to separate the hydrogen from water by using a very small amount of DC current, so its just the car battery. I'm not really after the idea but what surprised to see that the car he used was a Toyota.

Reply to
EdV

Water in the combustion chamber is bad right? or a little is better? I mean water in the gastank is not good for the car. What happens when your engine is turned off, water in the bottle will evaporate when you park it under the sun, and it will enter your engine while its not running, and at night when its cold the moisture in the engine will condense and form into liquid.

Reply to
EdV

You're right there. A senior engineer at work (car enthusiast) also mentioned that simply driving around would slosh water around the water tank; if the water lines are too big (1/8" or so), too much water could get into the intake manifold at once when the mist line sees submerged water, and sucks it in directly.

He suggested using a pressurized system instead: a fuel pump, controlled somehow based on the throttle position, feeding injectors with the water. Now we're talking bigger bucks though.

I like John's idea better though - ultrasonic humidifier. I have one in the house somewhere...

Reply to
mrdarrett

So when your driving in the rain, we get more mpg because moist air is sucked in by the engine?

Reply to
EdV

Maybe... our senior engineer said he saw an ad for a water injector a few decades ago - the advertisement went like "Have you ever noticed how your engine's performance improves when it's raining?" so he ignored the product - just like he ignored mpg-enhancers with magnets in the fuel line. etc. But he also went wild when he sent me the news clip about the 6-stroke Crower cycle (I think I included the link previously in this thread).

Water injection is nothing new, he says - it's been around for decades.

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett

Those water injection systems (or water/alcohol) were used several decades ago when emission control were terrible, cars didnt run well, dieseled, ran on, preignited, etc. Those were very unwieldy and primitive emission systems, and many of us stripped them from our cars, whether legal or not.

The vapor injection could help, sometimes. I think that they would probably just be a waste of time on modern, highly developed, engines.

The hydrogen situation is another scam. Hydrogen is a great fuel, but it is hard to store, and is not easy to generate in quantities large enough to run an engine. You cannot generate a lot of hydrogen with a small amount of electrical current. This is one of the laws of chemistry and physics.

There is still no free lunch.

Reply to
<HLS

Yep, no free lunch. Then again, sometimes you get lucky and find half a pizza someone discarded... (grin)

I recall reading somewhere that nickel-metal-hydride batteries were developed as an accident from hydrogen storage research. Food for thought (no pun intended)

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett

Cooler moist intake air will increase output. That's why Toyota pulls the air from the grille in front of the wheel well rather than from hot underhood air. To answer another question, the car will produce more power on a cool evening than during a hot dry day. That's why automotive performance runs list atmospheric temperature and pressure (elevation) as factors. Some have said the engine is "burning air" and to a certain extent that is true. More air, more power. Cooler denser air means more oxygen content per given volume and if you consider the principle of an evaporative air conditioner, you see how moisture cools the air. Still, I would not alter the engine operation to the extent of adding water. Water in the crankcase occurs through normal combustion (especially on a cold engine at start up) from blow by gasses, and combines with the engine oil to form corrosive acids, and if left long enough, sludge. While it does cost more than water, I use Lucas fuel treatment (quart size, , 4 - 5 oz. per tank full) and Lucas Synthetic oil stabilizer added (20%) to Mobil 1 (Pure One filter) and have found consistent and measurable increases in fuel economy. Definitely feels like the engine pulls more strongly through the power band also, even on hot, dry days with A/C on.

Reply to
Daniel

And on top of that, I just realized the MAP sensor probably won't appreciate a wet air stream... especially if it has ethanol in it.

Ah well... thanks for the thoughts, everyone.

Michael

Reply to
mrdarrett

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