Timing Belt Replacement

It is very common in cars these days for the water pump to be driven by the timing belt (or chain as the case may be). Two of the three cars I presently own (Chrysler 2nd generation LH cars are that way - one with timing belt, one with timing chain).

It bugs me that they did that with the engine that has a timing chain, because otherwise the timing chain could be expected to be undisturbed for the life of the engine. AS it is, just changing the water pump is a semi-major operation running $600 or $700 - and the common logic is that while you're in there expending all that labor to get to that pump, you might as well replace the chain (and of course the tensioner pulley), since the labor for doing that is free. But, likewise, on the engine that has the timing belt, the water pump is routinely replaced at the timing belt change interval of 105k miles (because of the labor).

The pressure on the auto manufacturers is high for very tight integration of the components - driving the WP with the timing belt or chain is tighter integration.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney
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As has been pointed out many times, they will charge you twice for the labor even if they do both at the same time.

Reply to
Mark A

Because some places add the extra labor regardless, as if they were changing the WP alone, get it? $500 to $700 for a TB change!!! Find another mech.

Now, I don't subscribe to WP's freezing up, they leak way before they freeze up. So that scare tactic is not in my playbook. Someone show me some stats on WP's freezing up, AND breaking the TB OR stripping the teeth.

Reply to
dbu

Some may have the serpentine belt confused with the camshaft timing belt, timing belt which is the same as a timing chain on some vehicles. The serpentine belt may very well drive numerous assy's such as the AC, Alt, air pump, PS and water pump. If it goes you loose all of those assy., but not the engine. Does your Tacoma have a serpentine belt or individual belts to drive various accessories as with my Trooper II?

Reply to
dbu

Let's fix your sentence, shall we?

"....they MIGHT charge you twice..."

and I will add "...if you were somehow unable to find an honest mechanic, which anyone should be able to do in under a year in any sizeable town."

Reply to
JoeSpareBedroom

Believe it - water pumps do lock up. One of the Chrysler engines (2.7L) I mentioned in my other thread are known for doing that - tears the timing chain and related components apart.

Also - it is considered very foolish not to change the tensioner pulley with the timing belt on engines - not just by shops, but by heavy DIY'ers. Go on any enthusiast forum, and you'll see that that is so. It is penny wise and dollar foolish.

You might find this thread interesting:

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which the owner is agonizing that, against the advice of those of us in the club to change belt/pump/tensioner when he bought the car used, he let the timing belt (and water pump and tensioner pulley) change go past the recommended 105k miles. One of them (either the pump or the tensioner locked up and tore the belt up - interference engine - he's now replacing the engine. That engine is not the 2.7L (with timing chain) that is known for doing this, but is the 3.5L (with timing belt). How much money did he save by waiting to do the belt? The same thing would have happened if he had done the belt but left the old pump and tensioner pulley in, and if that had been the case, the valid question would be "How much money did he save by not replacing the water pump (or tensioner pulley)?".

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

I would walk out of any shop that did that, and never look back. That is ludicrous. Any shop that does that is preying on the ignorance of the consumer, which admittedly there is enough of to keep them in business. I submit that *most* shops would consolidate the labor costs (unless you're in a scummy area with a high concentration of rip off shops).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

It's very common on Hondas. I know the Neon did this as well.

Reply to
SMS

Water pumps seizing, snapping the shaft, and having the timing belt fall off is a common problem, despite the fact that you personally have not experienced it. While I agree with you that $500 to $700 is way too much, this is not how much this job should cost, so that's irrelevant.

IIRC, the last time I had the timing belt/water pump replaced on a vehicle where the timing belt drove the water pump it was about $370.

A competent mechanic can do this job in less than two hours. It was a little higher than normal in my case because I wanted him to use OEM parts, not after-market. The labor was about $180 of the cost, at $90 per hour.

If the shop charges fixed rates, then they may charge two hours for a timing belt change, and another two hours for the water pump change, even though both can easily be done in less than two hours. This would really drive up the price.

Reply to
SMS

Depends where you go. The place I've had it done suggested to change the water pump at the same time, and didn't charge twice for labor, other than the extra time. It took under two hours. Watch out for those places that charge shop rates like that.

Reply to
SMS

One should never have their car worked on at places that do that - it is unethical.

Take a look at that Chrysler thread I linked earlier.

With the water pump at under $75 (OEM) and the combined cost of a Gates t-belt kit (includes tensioner pulley and timing belt) at under $100, compared to the cost if a junk yard engine (with installation) at $2500 to $3500 if the water pump or pulley should end up destroying the existing engine, I chose to have the water pump and tensioner pulley replaced on my Chrysler Concorde 3.2L engine (identical to the 3.5L engine in the thread I linked in my previous post from the 300M Club) along with the t-belt.

With those cost numbers staring me in the face, I don't have to look at statistics on pumps locking up to make that decision - especially after reading on forums about more than a handful of actual pulley and water pump lock ups occurring. If nothing else, I can sleep better at night not having to worry about it.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

Quite a few posters on this newsgroup have gotten quotes from dealers on a timing belt and water pump change. No one that I know of was quoted a break on the price when getting both done at the same time (compared to the sum of the price quote for having each done individually).

True, that is from Toyota dealers, but a lot of people prefer that such a critical repair be done by someone with lots of Toyota specific experience, and from a shop that will stand by their work.

Reply to
Mark A

I don't think you will find many (if any) Toyota dealers who cut you a price break on doing both at the same time.

Reply to
Mark A

Hah! Just one *MORE* reason why I don't have *any* work done at dealers

- Toyota or otherwise (unless there is no other way - i.e., I did have a Chrysler TCM reflashed one time about 5 years ago).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

I asked about that when I was working for a Toyota dealer. Most dealer use 'book' time, from Alldata, and total the time for a timing belt and then the time for a water pump.

It seems if you go in there and say, but you've got everything apart already...they might cut you a break.

I had my TB and WP done by an independant for $300.

Reply to
hachiroku

We had this discussion before...

According to Gates' web site, an example of Toyotas with a water pump that is driven by the timing belt:

95-04 Avalon 83-01 4 cyl Camry 88-04 V6 Camry

You can go to the web site, look at the automotive timing belt replacement guide, and look for vehicles with the # sign, which indicates a water pump that is driven by the timing belt.

Reply to
Ray O

Millions of GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota vehicles...

And how many [different] vehicles do you service per day, week, month, year?

Not necessarily.

Not rare at all.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

Then you're not very good at choosing a mechanic.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

Published labor time for the water pump is 3.5 hours w/ AC Published labor time for just the timing belt is 3.2 hours w/AC

Reply to
aarcuda69062

No need is correct, but that's not necessarily prudent.

Use OE, screw Gates.

Because they don't last forever.

$400-$500 would be more like it.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

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