Timing Belt Replacement

You mean like the theory that the Anti-virus companies are also the one releasing the viruses (er, virii?).

I don't think it is quite the same. A hotel is different than an auto dealer in a lot of ways.

1. First, the most frequent hotel guests (business travelers) are repeat customers over the short and long term. Most people only buy a car on average once every 3-5 years.
2. If a hotel room is empty (because an unsatisfied guest checked out or because the hotel has a bad reputation) the hotel can never recapture the room revenue for the night. An unsold car may gradually loose value as it sits on the lot, but it only looses value very slowly, and you can always sell it to someone if the price is right.
3. When you buy a Toyota, the dealers will sell it to you and prep the car, but it is made by Toyota, not the dealer. You can get warranty service at any dealer, regardless of where you bought the car. If you need non-warranty repairs, then you don't even need to take it to a dealer. So if the price is right, many people will buy a car at a particular dealer regardless of whether they have the best service.
4. Most hotels are bought and sold for tax reasons, mostly having to do with real estate investments and depreciation (which is most advantageous during early years of ownership)..

What you have said about timing belt change and water pump replacement (at the same time) has been documented many times in this newsgroup. Ray O refuses to face the reality on this particular combination of service items, that in fact almost all dealers ARE double-dipping on the labor.

I can already hear the violins playing now, and everyone saying that Ray is great guy and that I shouldn't pick on him or question his omnipotence. Soon we will hear about his Eagle Scout merit badges and how he is God's gift to this newsgroup and that I am the devil. Fine.

But despite all of this, the majority (if not all) of Toyota dealers ARE double-dipping on labor for timing belt and water pump changes when done at the same time.

I'm ready to believe that "almost all dealers" are double dipping, if you can document this claim. Are you in the auto service business?

First, we only talking about doing a timing belt and water pump change at the same time. I don't want to comment on other double dipping, and I doubt they charge any labor to replace a regular belt (besides a timing belt) that is already off (or loose) because of some other service work being done.

Second, I am not in the auto service business. But this is irrelevant, because even if I was, it is doubtful that I would have first hand knowledge at every Toyota dealer. I am simply repeating what a fairly large number of posters on this forum have said on this issue after they got a quote from a Toyota dealers.

If someone wants to verify the claim, they should get a quote for a timing belt change and water pump change, and see if there is a difference in labor if they are done at the same time as opposed the one at a time. You can call several Toyota dealers in your area. I doubt that most would give you a break on the combined labor on their first quote. They might relent a little if you pressed them really hard, but I doubt it.

Lastly, although it may not be completely "fair" to charge the full labor if both items are done at the same time (as opposed to being done individually at different times), I don't think it is dishonest. There is nothing forcing you to use a dealer to have the service done. I also understand that when dealing with a big service operation like a Toyota dealer, you are not dealing with the head guy, but just a bunch of employees who are trying to follow the rules. A small independent shop may be able to bend the pricing rules for each individual situation a lot easier than a Toyota service advisor.

Compared to the number of timing belts installed by Toyota dealers each year, the "fairly large number of posters" would need to number in the thousands to be statistically significant. This, or course, assumes at least a passing acquaintance with statistics, a subject which most people hated in college.

That's exactly how DEMONrats/LIEbrawls think!

It's no fun getting a major woodie with no readily available pussy...but it happens...occasionally.

Ray O. is used to dealing with Old School Toyota dealerships, like the one in my home town.

If you brought a car in for a timing belt change, and it was discovered the water pump was leaking, then the price for replacing the water pump and the timing belt was the price of the pump, the price of the belt, the labor to remove the cover, belt, etc, and maybe 15 minutes more to replace the pump.

Around here, *ALL* the Toyota dealers were like that, except for one, and Ray knows the one I'm talking about...the BIG one, waaaaay out there...

You don't? We're going to remove the covers, the belt and the tensioner to replace the timing belt. The water pump is hanging right there in the open after all the other components that need to be removed for the timing belt are out of the way.

You don't think it's dishonest to charge for the same labor twice?

Dude, bring your car to me! I'll gladly service it if you have that kind of money to burn!

Sharx is back!

Seals used onthe crankshaftt, valve stems, etc. are lubricated with oil, while water pump bearings are sealed without an external source of lubrication. Water is also erosive, which makes sealing and lubricating that much harder. If the coolant starts to pick up corrosion, the metal particles add to the erosion.

I like your definition, and come to think of it, automakers (at least Toyota, I assume all) have a definition of "lifetime" along those lines.

If those pumps were moving a lubricant instead of something erosive, then making water pumps more dependable would be much easier.

Besides posts remaining on the internet essentially forever, most of the people posting do not know as much about the subject they are posting about or they leave out some pertinent facts, like complaining about a water pump failure at only 90,000 miles on a 9 year old car when the coolant has never been changed.

It is possible to fix problems and handle PR in a way that actually enhances the public's perception. A classic case is Tylenol, where they restored public confidence in their product after the contamination scare.

If we're thinking about the same one, he disappeared a few months after I started calling on him. Perhaps having most of his franchisors start charging him back for warranty claim irregularities; receiving weekly calls from the AG; and having his store featured on the nightly news consumer protection segment, and having his most profitable line threaten to not renew his franchise convinced him to find another line of work.

I didn't say I condone or that I like their policy. But it is only dishonest if they lie to you (quote you one price and charge you a different price). If you don't like their prices, then go somewhere else.

Why don't you call the Toyota dealers in your area and ask them for a price quote of the following for a 2000 Camry V6 (to be consistent):

1. Water pump change only
2. Timing belt change only
3. Timing belt change and water pump change done at the same time.

You might be able to talk them into a discount (especially if you are Ray O and know the dealer), but from what most people have posted in this forum, an anonymous phone call requesting a quote will show that the initially quoted price of item 3 is the same as items 1 + 2 above.

You don't need a sample size of thousands. Just call all the dealers in your area.

Of course maintenance could affect that. If a manufacturer is diligent in designing a pump that will last the life of the vehicle, it may be with the assumption that the coolant is changed at the necessary intervals (and of course that the proper coolant is used). I have seen articles about coolant (at least certain types) and how its chemistry changes pretty drastically over time - causing high acidity, clumping, etc. If the majority of consumers ignore the maintenance as far as coolant change intervals, then that could be a problem for the hope of a lifetime pump. Obviously if that is the case, the longer the life of the coolants that are usable, the less of a negative effect the consumer's neglect will have. Some coolants are worse in their degraded chemistry over time than others - DexCool? I believe is one of those.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

I would do that in 3 separate phone calls to each dealer. The fact that you have enough brains to even delineate the options could drastically affect their answer (i.e., they will give different answers depending on if they think you have any savvy about car repairs or not - for example, you might get a different answer on option 3. if you are a woman who - quote - ...was told by someone that she needs something like a timing belt and a water pump changed... - unquote - asking vs. a man that sounds like he knows what he's talking about).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Good point. But if you asked the price of number 3 first (price of changing timing belt and water pump at the same time), and then asked the price of them individually after that, it might suffice.