lookin 4

Actually you probably would not want it if it was offered any cheaper cause the buckfifty ones are pretty flimsy to begin with. A "good" one I have heard run in the $300 range.

Some of the craftier guys have built there own in the past, usually stronger than most anything offered and alot cheaper.

What are your reasons for needing one? There are better ways to "lift" a beetle of your building an offroader.

Mark Detro Englewood, FL

66' panel 71' westy 73' baja

Mark is dead on correct here....too many people don't realize that when you put a "body lift" on that you must them raise your seats, and modify the body where the steering shaft goes out....these two items can cause a simple "modification" to become a much larger job....there are other things that *may* need attention also when raising the body....

------------------- Chris Perdue "I'm ever so thankful for the Internet; it has allowed me to keep a finger in the pie and to make some small contribution to those younger who will carry the air-cooled legend forward" Jim Mais Feb. 2004

Great points stuff like that ususally doesn't pop up until its too late!, I was actually thinking in the perspective of strength (lack of to be exact) and the fact that it does nothing to increase actual ground clearence. Allthough in some instances (say a full bodied sedan) you may be forced to do a body lift but I'd definitly make it a last resort :) Mark Detro Englewood, FL

66' panel 71' westy 73' baja

Does nothing to increase actual ground clearance? Sure it does! No way, dudes. A body lift gives you the extra tire clearance that gives you the extra ground clearance (from running larger diameter tires) without sacrificing the stock "ride" a VW suspension gives you. Sure you gotta worry about clutch linkage and stuff like that, but when you start replacing the suspension then you lose the forgiveness that's built into it. How do you raise the rear effectively? I did the torsion bar turning and it lifted the crap out of the rear and also used air shocks but it made for a rough ride and some busted boots on on the half-axles every time the suspension got fully compressed and the half-axles hit the frame horn thingies on the rear...it woulld pinch the boots between the half-axles and the framehorns....sorry for the techincal descriptions... Don't get me wrong...I only pinched the boots about 8 times running on 8-9 trips with that configuration (yeah, almost every time) but... I put a body lift on my jeep and had to extend the steering column, fabricate the clutch linkage and extend the filler tube for the gas tank but those were all trivial compared to redoing the suspension. Oh, and also had to rethink the emergency brake cable. I think a body lift on a bug would be a great experiment. If I go that way again then I'll start out with a 3" lift and if it doesn't work out ok then I'll break out the saws-all and the welder and try it as a 2" lift....etc. With the "non-irs rear suspension" (even though they were all IRS) you get the severe camber thing going on making it unstable, too. Example:

Body lift to give extra room for big tires would eliiminate thatalso... Just my thoughts. Would like to hear input back.

this is a point that needs to be repeated also.....the body lift only creates more fenderwell area for the *potential* for more ground clearance by makeing room for larger tires....(which incidently is the only way to gain "true" ground clearance...)

------------------- Chris Perdue "I'm ever so thankful for the Internet; it has allowed me to keep a finger in the pie and to make some small contribution to those younger who will carry the air-cooled legend forward" Jim Mais Feb. 2004

you sure?

so you do realize the body lift doesn't give you ground clearance...good....now as far as installing a bodylift to give you more *potential* for ground clearance by running larger tires, i have two words...(and it is far simpler than a body lift) "Baja Fenders"...

this only matters to those that want to build a "street baja"...really...if you are building a baja for offroad you will usually want to set the suspension either really soft for articulation or a bit stiffer(if using stock components as apposed to "long travel" parts) to keep from bottoming out and bending parts when you actually catch some air....i raised my baja by adjusting the stock torsion arms, then used a "reversed" wheel so i could fit larger tires, then boxed in the trailing arms, beefed up the shock mounts(upper and lower) and used coilover shocks.....it was a bit rough on the street, but one of the things i built it for was for high flying, and being able to handle it....

but if you have to modify the body and associated systems to fit a body lift why not just modify the suspension so it will be more suited for your needs?....(forgiveness?)

the pinching of the boots had nothing to do with the suspension compressing, but everything to do with too much drop....that comes with modifying one part and not the other parts that it affects(you did add the limiter chains later though)

and once you identified the problem it was very easy to fix(since other parts had been modified, thorough "testing" should always be done to make sure that the "modifications" work with the existing parts)

thats alot of work compared to swapping out some springpacks and maybe a steering arm....

a very good exercise in patience....

yes trying to use a stock suspension in a manor that it was not designed for can be dangerous....if you redesign the suspension, you must follow through with it to the end, not just stop once you have achieved the initial goal(in this case higher stance)..

ahem.....cough*baja fenders*cough

------------------- Chris Perdue "I'm ever so thankful for the Internet; it has allowed me to keep a finger in the pie and to make some small contribution to those younger who will carry the air-cooled legend forward" Jim Mais Feb. 2004

You know what? I just read through your response and saw a few things I'd like to yell "bullshit" to but just after reading it all and just before responding I had a sort of deja-vu. And I remembered several things I'd talked about doing to the LCB that you tried to steer me away from that I went headstrong into anyway. And then I thought how I should have listened all along to I wouldn't have to go through the painful LEARNING experiences I did. And then I thought again and realized why they pay me the big $$$ at work. It's because I don't take an answer and accept it without proving it to be true for myself. So far, Chris, you're Masta Po and have got all of the answers to my questions right. I would be a bit less of a pupil if I started accepting all of your answers without questioning them. I don't intend to start that now. *insert Kung Fu music here to create eerie effect* OK, now back to reality. Comments inline below. :-)

I had those and even with the torsion bar lift I had minor clearance problems in the rear with the 31" tires. Front-end was fine with baja fenders.

I was just saying the stock suspension on a VW Bug is a good compromise for ride quality and that as soon as you turn torsion bars and put in air shocks you lose some of that. Adding a body lift and larger tires does give you the extra ground clearance without sacrificing much of the ride quality VW engineered into the car. I realize the larger tires are larger reciprocating masses (concerning the up and down motion the shocks make...not talking about anything circular here) that the shocks have to take into account, but still the body lift with taller tires is the easiest way I now to give extra under-body clearance without sacrificing much ride quality.

You have to compromise either way. Here's my confession. I never looked deep into a body lift on a VW Bug because I had pretty impressive ground clearance with mine just using the redneck tricks. I did look into it on a Jeep and the concepts are similar. Body lift = remove body from frame, put spacers in-between, compensate for parts that span between body and frame. All you need pretty much are the spacers between body and frame and a couple of very cheap extension pieces for clutch linkage and (dependig on platform maybe for fuel tank). Now with a suspension lift you have to replace the springs and mounts and all that crap. At least 3X the expense and it buys you.... more clearance for bigger tires (but not more than the body lift) and a compromised (compared to factory) suspension setup. Body lift is $150 or so and keeps all stock springs and stuff. Body lift is the cheap/easy way to go. I'm sure that "someone" would like to chime in on this...

Looking back on it and picturing it in my mind you are exactly right on that point.

And once I got the length on the limiter chains just right I stopped pinching the boots but didn't get enough droop to justify the suspension mods to begin with. Again, I put those chains in there to keep the half shafts from dropping too low to keep the axle boots from getting pinched. The only reason the axle boots were dropping so low is the re-indexed torsion bars were forcing them down violently. For extra ground clearance. It was stressing the rear suspension. Would have been much easier to have put on a body lift and run bigger tires on the rear (because I could with that body lift) to give the extra clearance... I'm only speaking from experience, and in my experience I've never run with a body lift on a VW so there's a good possibility that I'm missing something that might happen as a result of a body lift on a VW Bug that I didn't mention here. Interesting discussion. To me, at least. :)

I haven't performed both procedures, but I've read about them both and after reading about both proceudres I chose the body lift and it was pretty damn simple. Just like the stuff I read said it would be... and much simpler than the suspension lifts I'd read.

Big difference between bug and Jeep but it took about 4 hours to do the Jeep body lift and neither I nor my friend David had ever done that before. I have trouble believing a body lift on a bug would take longer or even that long...given the right tools.

*cough* Been there, used those fenders with 31" tires and grossly re-indexed torsion bars and still had minor clearance problems. *cough*

that is an excellent quality...but so is being able to take a good clear explanation as to why something is not a great idea and save yourself alot of pain.....

please don't...not for me nor anyone else....i'm just some words on a screen...but don't discount opinions just because they are that either...

now...you have come to the "otherside'...you can see the limitations of a kit that is designed for street legality....but where there is a need for improvements, improvements can be made....but you won't pull those out of a box...

i agree....but the question is, is what you gain worth the loss?

while i somewhat agree here, you have to look at intended use...the bodylift instead of the suspension adjustment will net you the same thing....more clearance for bigger tires....but they do it differently....with the bodylift you get the clearance, but with factory compression rates...meaning softer suspension...good for street....with the re-indexing of torsion bars you get the clearance and it takes *more* force to push those pretty new big mudgrippers into your pretty new fiberglass fenders....good trade in my book...

as i said it is all about what you want to do....if you want ride quaility there are much better systems out there than event he factory suspension...if you want offroad there too are better ways out there....there are always many different ways to go, and they all get used....just gotta decide which way works best in your situation...

a lifted vw has very impressive pan clearance.....but as stated, and as with the jeeps more prominant differentials, larger tires are the only true way of getting ground clearance......(the concept is similar for the jeep and beetle, but the similarities pretty much end there...)

good concept....

i agree with some of this...but i have yet to see an 8-12 inch bodylift, yet i see them for suspension lifts reguarly....the single biggest thing you gain with a suspension lift over a body lift is suspension travel....but if that is not of use to you then is a moot point...

cheapest isn't always best....looking at your argument here i see a major flaw...you are basing the entire arguement on the fact that you can modify your vehicle cheaply and keep the stock "springs and such"....that is great for economic reasons, but does not make sense for logical reasons...if the stock suspension was adequate then why are you attempting to modify it anyway?

i thought you wanted more clearance for larger tires?....has nothing to do with the "droop" problems you encountered...

i agree with your diagnosis, but not with your last statement...the suspension was not stressed...

easier...hmm....maybe, but then with your cushy stockish suspension and stock suspension travel you could have had alot of fun bottoming out reguarly whereas suspension lifts help in this department...

and i have never run with a bodylift on any 4x4 truck/jeep....and for good reason....

i agree...and this is what this board is for...

i get the feeling the bodylift was chosen because it was cheaper and easier...correct me if i am wrong...

maybe it is all perception, but i have never thought that totally removeing and rebuilding the suspension on any vehicle was a major undertaking...(i did however have a cussing fit with a pneumatic suspension system on a subaru XT once..)

i see your thinking...but for someone that has never removed the body from the pan of a bug, it would indeed take more time than that 4 hours for the jeep...with a jeep/truck/any vehicle mounted separately to a frame, it is much simpler to install a bodylift.........

*cough* imagine how much fender to tire problems you would have had, had you not given yourself more suspension travel by re-indexing those torsion bars...the stock travel and softer rate would have been doom for your choppergun fenders*cough*

i, for the record, am not condemning a body lift for any vehicle....but there are advantages and disadvantages...to me the main advantage would seem to be price, and not much more....

------------------- Chris Perdue "I'm ever so thankful for the Internet; it has allowed me to keep a finger in the pie and to make some small contribution to those younger who will carry the air-cooled legend forward" Jim Mais Feb. 2004

Not if you can gain it another way without losing.

To a point, sure, but the ride gets pretty "bouncy" when you reindex the torsion bars enough to give you the tire/fender clearance you need and when you pump up the air shocks enough to get rid of some of the bounce you wind up with a very stiff ride. You have to trade off between the bounch and the stiffness when you do the reindexing/air-shock thing.

Of course there's better stuff out there. I'm (as always) talking about how to do this without having to spend a ridiculous amount of money on it.

Sure it is, and that's the way it works.

Oh, sure. I won't argue with you about any of that.

I'm aware cheapest isn't always best. Sounds silly to hear someone even offer that up as "advice." Major flaw in my argument? We're arguing? The stock suspension was adequate and still is. I'm not trying to modify it. I'm just trying to get more ground clearance. Body lift along with oversized tires will do exactly that. No flaw in that "logic." That's just the way it is.

Sure it was. When I re-indexed the torsion bars, it was just like winding a spring up tighter so it uncoiled harder and forced the axles/wheels/tires down further to give more lift and more tire/fender clearance. When I added the limiting chains, it made it so that the axles/wheels/tires would not be able to go down as far, limiting the amount of lift I was getting and the tire/fender clearance.

That depends on driving style to a large degree and I was never one to tear through the trails. Maybe a mud puddle or two, but for the most part my offroading in the baja and the jeep was at very slow speeds.

You are exactly right. Cost less, easier to perform, and got me the lift I wanted.

It might not be a major undertaking, but it's much more involved than putting a body lift on.

I can't argue with that since like you said I've never removed the body from the pan on a bug before.

I think that if I'd had a body lift and air shocks I'd have been better off. Reindexing the torsion bars does cause a "spring" to creep into the ride and that springiness is what causes the tires to bounce up into the fenderwells. I'd have had the same fender/tire clearance with the body lift, but not extra springiness, and air shocks to help tame the tires if they tried to smash the precious chopper-gun fenders after hitting a bump.

I think that's also the main advantage and for my offroad driving style I don't see any major disadvantages, and didn't experience any disadvantages when I ran with a body lift on the jeep. If I had all the time and $ I wanted to "do it right" I'd do a combination of suspension and body lift. I don't have all I want of either of those things, though, so for now I'll just have to "shag" it. :-)

this doesn't make sense....if the torsion bars are "stressing" the suspension to force the wheels down, they would be more resistant to any upward force causing the tires to bounce up into the fenderwells....but i guess anything is possible...

the airshocks were a large part of the "problem" you report...the airshocks made your ride harsh, not so much the re-indexed torsion bars...the airshocks job is to add weight carrying/load leveling charactoristics and that make the force needed to compress the suspension greater, resulting in a harsher ride....ideally you want a "lift" that will allow you to do what you want to do clearance wise and NOT have to use "airshocks" which are more of a hinderance than anything....

well that is what is important....i tend to recommend a suspension lift on pretty much any vehicle that needs a lift, because it is usually a complete system modification instead of a few spacers....but whatever works for the individual to get tthe desired results is the way to go...what works for you may not work for me, and vice versa...

don't see how that would get you any extra lift, but go for it...

------------------- Chris Perdue "I'm ever so thankful for the Internet; it has allowed me to keep a finger in the pie and to make some small contribution to those younger who will carry the air-cooled legend forward" Jim Mais Feb. 2004

Oh yea, I forgot how unstable that C-G stuff is. I should count myself lucky I didn't loose a limb! :)

BTW this is a good tip if you havent heard it already, use some of that roll on bedliner material on the underside of the fenders, it helps absorb the shock of rocks/debris coming off the tire causing thos darned spider crack in the gel! Mark Detro Englewood, FL

66' panel 71' westy 73' baja