OT: traffic cameras

< Is it a narrow street? Why don't you buy a couple of barely legal

......now what if one of those "wrecks" is a dead Crown Vick or Caprice or Intrepid painted B&W (or whatever color the local law uses for cruisers, ours are navy and white....your results may vary) and a few extra antennea on the rear deck ....dummy spotlight on the door....put a cheap Fuzzbuster with the shielding removed in it to set off radar detectors.......you get the idea...

Sneaks

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:36:19 -0400, travis , who was sitting in a corner eating his Xmas pie stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plum and began to run off at the mouth like so:

Uh... I mean "SO THEIR!!!"

-- Travis (Shaggie) '63 VW Camo Baja...

corrodes the vessel that carries it.

Those cans of expanding foam are great for this.

Randy

...one of my favorites.....get a fish.....preferably one of the "stronger" fish like cod or .....my favorite....sucker....put it in a black trash bag and hang it out in the sun for 3-4 days...a little water (2-3 cups is good) with yogurt in it ......once the fish is nice and fermented...step on the bag (sandwich it with cardboard as not to scuff or rip it) with the fish to "vent" it's internal gases and liquid into the slimy water.....now go to the offending car.....place the bag over the cowl vents.....the fresh air vents for the interior....then CAREFULLY puncture the bag and let the "potion" drain into the vents......no Little Tree gonna make that car smell any better..........not that I've tried that one......

Sneaks

So you avoid the question.

Figures.

I fight it any chance I get. whenever I hear of a new one being installed I write my congressman. (they probably auto trash all my letters by now)

it will be ignored because its a form of TAX basically and they would never willingly agree to stop a profit source if they could help it.

Chris Taylor

I have stayed out of this thread, but wanted to make a contribution by posting a picture of a way that Chris can use to avoid being ticketed by the camera.

The photo at the link below reflects the view that some people have of the cameras.

Bill Berckman

67 Beetle Pictures at Family Reunion Show Sept 21 2003 Cincinnati OH

that second link says it perfectly.

I am not overly likely to get caught by one of these. but I am also not the kind of person that tends to say. it does not affect me so its not my problem. I know the slippery slope that that can lead you into.

What grates me is I see cops break the law all the time. even last night. Cop pulled up alongside me at a light. and then just Drove through it. No light No hurry. I caught up to him at the next light (did not run this one) and was with him for another 3 miles (we were going the same way) no lights no stops.

Last I checked the law did not say. no running red lights except for cops. (assuming no emergency)

but who the hell is going to pull him over ? Not exactly sure how well a citizen's arrest would go over in that scenario :-) (and I do not think it applies for such an offense)

Again my problem is with the machine not the law. the law in these cases is usually fine its the way they want to enforce it. it is only to make money in more cases than not.

also most dangerous intersection are not dangerous so much because of the people but because of a poorly designed intersection. but instead of FIXING the intersection they just install a camera ???

Chris Taylor

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:55:59 -0400, "Chris Taylor Jr" scribbled this interesting note:

Study up on your economics. Revenue derived from people running red lights and getting ticketed is not a tax in any way, shape, or form. A tax is a tax is a tax and will always be labled as such. The sales tax is an ad valorem tax, the income tax is a graduated (otherwise known as progressive) tax based on income levels, the property tax is another form of tax, FICA is yet another kind of tax. These are taxes. Each has its purpose and intended goal and results (intended or otherwise.)

Sending out a few tickets because some folks couldn't be bothered not to run red lights is emphatically not a tax any by calling it that (if you have in your letters) you are telling your congressmen and women that you don't know what you are talking about.

Although I applaud you for taking the time to write your representatives. Far too few people do so. It is a very important form of participation in our representative republic (note I do not call it a democracy since it isn't one!:~)

-- John Willis

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:41:15 -0500, John Willis , who was sitting in a corner eating his Xmas pie stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plum and began to run off at the mouth like so:

I DO NOT RECOGNIZE THE AUTHORITY OF A POLICE OFFICER TO DO WHATEVER THERE DECIDE THE'YRE SHOULD DO BECAUSE I AM INNOCENT AND....

Oh, sh*t. Forget it. :-)

-- Travis (Shaggie) '63 VW Camo Baja...

corrodes the vessel that carries it.

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:58:50 -0400, "Chris Taylor Jr" ran around screaming and yelling:

the subject is about traffic cameras...don't change the subject to try and make it support your views...to prove what the subject is, here is your very first ignorant post on this thread:

would your wheels stop spinning if i told you there are no tollbooths for a couple hundred miles of me?...i have no experience with the tollbooth bs you keep bringing into this traffic camera thread...the last time i paid tolls was five years ago...i *used* to travel around for my job, but i don't anymore...i always paid my toll and never got a ticket...coincedence?....but in the off chance that i did get ticketed for a toll that i paid, i would use the best angle to defend myself...you are not smart enought to see it though...i have never been through a tollbooth that didnt' have a "gate"....if you don't pay your toll, the gate doesn't go up...so in order to get through you would have to hit the gate, which would surely cause damage to both the gate and your vehicle....no body damage or recent repairs and you will in all likelyhood be "innocent"....duh...

J... A: top posting Q: whats the most ignorant thing on usenet?

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:48:22 -0500, John Willis ran around screaming and yelling:

John, do you actually think he does as he says? I don't believe it for a minute...his BS gets deeper the more his "argument" stumbles... J

CT, I am sure it will and has had and can have and will have been and is likely the "machine" is correct in a rather large amount of the arguable situations. Is 99.999999% not good enough for you? I drove through quite closely to a woman that did not get the green light on the Toll Road about a month back. She was Shaking her hands like she was Mad because the light never changed to her favor. Now, I'm no rocket scientist, but I play one on TV, and my character is a pretty good judge of character for the most part., and I do beleive the woman was sure she had paid her toll....... .........However, she did not. I could see the coins she threw in the machine and it was waiting for more money , because her three quarters turned out to be two, and the third "quarter" was a nickel...........................So when My car triggered the device, it moved her coins on through and asked me for the 75 cents. I believe it's possible for humans to make mistakes much more often than the machines do. Therefore I will only debate the issue if there is in my mind NO SHADOW OF A DOUBT that I am correct. Such as, did I look at the coinage that I threw in the machine?............................Did it make it into the machine properly? and other such things. I also believ that one day I will get a ticket for "running a redlight, if they install cameras at every intersection, if I don;t watch out. I am ( and others I know) guilty of driving through certain redlights almost habitually , as they are rediculously long and no one at all is around so I just tool right through. I know What I am doing , so if I am caught at it I will take the beating...................no sense waiting till eight minutes goes by and no one else is even awake at three in the morning.................................I make my decision and will also take that chance that I will get caught. I also drive a pretty worn path to wherever I go, and am guilty of doing things such as running the yellow on purpose................No biggy if I get a ticket, but I don;t enjoy the thought....................Anyways..................most of the people in the whole "machine thread" are not disagreeing with your hating the camera..........................just that you think you won't pay the ticket. Most of us just think you are slightly heavy on the BS in the sandwich you serve. Is that straught forward enough that you'll understand that everyone understands??//???

I am not looking for a response to continue the discussion, and have already responded way too much about the whole thing. I even think I said somewhere back at the early part of the discussion, that I wouldn;t respond at all...............Sorry folks. All I am doing is trying to help you(chris) understand that the issue of the camera is not in question and hasn;t been since early on................it's been the dispositions of the folks about your comment that you "won't pay".....................capiche?( only two questions to answer , not a new discussion on any part of the subject,..............I just want to know if you understand the whole scene????

Last chance. get 'em while there hot!!!!

Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply MUADIB®

No, they don't mail tickets, but they are a machine, or a simple set of machines..................( figure this out from elementary school stuff)LOL

It has an intial cost, but the humps can cost a hell of a bunch of money if you don;t obey them................can you say,............undercarriage damage?

(I'm just pickin for fun here so be nice)...........only 95% of the people who live on the street agreed................the many many more that drive the street to get to their homes and such , did not agree.

And what you are missing here is.......................No one really cares what you think, here in Grland......................the analogy is......................a machine is a machine is a machine.......................be it simple or complex.

some enforce directly, by removing the underside of your car if you don't slow down..............others are a bit more passive and just send you a nice birthday card with a fine in it.

Now,.....................I am not entirely sure, but I will search on this this weekend and hope I find something...................Is the civil fine related to your insurance ( read this *RECORD* ) if cited for running a redlight???????????????? That I would have a problem with completely. but Still............I'll take my lumps for my decision making. As long as I am fully aware of the law I can;t argue.

Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply MUADIB®

Err....you misspelled *prophet*, didn't you??

Discussing this with you is pointless.

you are clearly mentally deficient if you can not see the difference between a road bump that does nothing actively by itself and a camera that takes your picture. Accuses you of a crime for which you can not defend yourself which causes a legal penalty to be assesed to you regardless of whether you are innocent.

only a moron could not see the difference.

a road bump is 100% perfect. it can not be flawed. if you drive to fast you will incur damage. if you do not drive to fast you will NOT incur damage

100% of the time. period.

Chris Taylor

No I mispelled for. I spelled it as "as" there.

Chris Taylor

that is why I call it a TAX.

taxes are government revenue and these camera's are just one more revenue source.

Hell did you not hear what the jersey people said about ez pass.

they expected the FINES to PAY for ez pass withing something like 3 years.

They panicked when people were not CHEATING and actually were PAYING the tolls (who would have thought)

Kind of makes you wonder about how they VERY conveniently forgot to tell everyone their batteries were going to die and get them fined HEAVILY even though they not only knew that the batteries were going to die they had it to a 2 month period WHEN they were going to die BEFORE they actually died.

They hoped many would just PAY the FINES and be done with it.

they treated fines as a revenue source. it burned them when not enough people got fined.

Parking meter fines are also a "TAX" or for your speak a REVENUE source. go read the article on why it is doubted ANY municipalities will ever install the auto meter (radio meter in your car like ez pass kind of to auto pay meter for as long as you are parked)

why because it is a SIGNIFICANT revenue source for most municipalities (the larger ones) to hand out fines.

want more PROOF of this. WHY ELSE would it be ILLEGAL for me to pay YOUR meter.

that's right. you can be ARRESTED and FINED for paying someone elses meter.

Chris Taylor

NO THE FREAKING SUBJECT IS NOT ABOUT TRAFFIC CAMERA's !!!!

IT NEVER WAS FOR ME !!! and NEVER WILL BE !!!

the SUBJECT is a MACHINE dolling out accusations and CONVICTIONS that you can not defend against if you are innocent.

ANY machines that accuses you of a legal offense and then causes you to be prosecuted/fined by the legal system etc..

THAT IS THE FREAKING subject. THAT IS THE POINT!

YOU are specifically harping on the red light camera because it is ONE instance where you can SPIN in just such a way as to disagree with it.

Chris Taylor

?? where has paying come into this ? that part lasted for about 3 posts and was gone and never mentioned again by me or anyone else ?

it is not a matter of percentages because your percentages are incorrectly attributed.

IF I pay a toll properly and that camera goes off.

I am 0% at fault. not .0000001 % but 0% and 100% right.

but I am also 100% certain of being made to pay that fine. not 99.999% likely to pay the fine. 100% since after all that have an incontrovertable photograph after all.

I have had tolls not function for me several times and when it occurs I refuse to move. I will not leave that toll booth till its corrected (turnpike if it does not trigger and give me a ticket) I wait till a person comes over and FIXES it on the spot.

I have no idea what I will do if it happens at an automated toll. Hopefully I will never encounter said problem since I have no idea what I could do their on the spot. I sure as hell would not pay twice. and I can tell you I would not pay the fine. I always double and triple check the coinage in my hand and I very carefully toss it into the basket and very all coins entered. I will even substitude a coin if it appears damaged etc.. for fear the machine might mistake it or jam or something.

but what happens when the light turns GREEN and the camera still takes a picture ? (this HAS happened to people)sadly the picture is not only black and white but the LIGHT is not VISIBLE in the picture ? (or is it ? I have seen a few from tolls and could never find the "light" in it.

My problem is that with machines the way they are used today. it is NOT EVEN so much that they can make mistakes (and they CAN) but that you have NO POSSIBLE MEANS OF DEFENSE IF THEY DO. that's the problem. No trial No jury (you get the idea) you are CONVICTED the moment the picture is taken. YOU WILL be found guilty. the hearing is just a legal formality. they have a PICTURE after all.

For the red light camera. if they would install 2 video camera's that would record MOTION video that included you are from before you entered the intersection till you have fully left the intersection AND included the traffic light IN that same video scene I would be MUCH less concerned about them since now you have what amounts to eyewitness testimony that can be LOOKED at by you and the judge and the officer and interpritations of the conditions considered.

if this had happened in MY scenario of running the light I would suck it up and pay the fine. I did after all commit the crime even if totally accidentally and without danger to anyone.

this is easy to do. the camera would buffer video (30 seconds is enough) and loop this buffer when an offense triggers the system the 30seconds would be SAVED with the proceeding recording. It can be all digital with no moving parts at all.

but this kind of system would only catch REAL red light runs since it could be DEFENDED against in court. that is precisley why they would never install such a system unless forced to.

Same with the radar stations. if another car triggers it but it catches me we would SEE this other car moving FASTER than I am in the video. it would be clear who the offender is. its also VERY easy to caculate speed based on known measurements of distance and frame rate. and VERY accurate too.

This system is NEARLY full proof AND most importantly can be DEFENDED against if you are innocent.

again they will never install it because they loose their revenue source.

Same will tolls booths. I bet they do not include the light in the image on purpose (it would be easy to rig a second light even so it could be clearly seen if the red or green light was illuminated when the accused went through the toll booth. put the light on the ground below eye level so the driver can see the same light the camera is seeing.

in this case the system is nearly FULL PROOF. but again you need video to show before and after.

When you go to court you look at the photo and it will be clear if the RED or the GREEN light is illuminate. if the RED light is NOT illuminated you are innocent regardless of what the machine says.

again the point of all this is that with the current system an innocent person has NO practical if even possible means of defending themselves.

add that back to the equation and I am less concerned with it but still do not like machine camera units but that is a different topic all togethers and not totally related to the issue at hand.

Chris Tayor