Static 32 degrees BTDC!?!? No way!!! Way?

You can NOT rely on the engine code NOR the sainted Mr. Muir for timing advice. Period.

The ONLY thing that decides timing spec is the particular distrib which is in the engine NOW.

Got a distrib with 2 vac hoses?? Then the initial timing IS 5 deg ATDC. BUT......you can't use a static timing lamp to set it.

Got ANY other distrib?? Then go here:

and look it up.

P.S. I'm in a humorous mood tonight.

Speedy Jim

Thanks, Speedy. Centrifugal advance only. Looks like this is the one I have: VW Models Equipped With "009" Distributor Distributor: VW 126-905-205, Bosch 0231 178 009

Timing Set At:: Most applications - 5 to 7.5deg BTDC Static. Full advance should not exceed 32 degrees at 3000rpm with stroboscopic timing light.

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Do y'all think I can probably trust the markings on the new pulley I just got? It is keyed for the crankshaft key thingie. If so then I'm gonna install it tomorrow and set my timing for static ~6 degrees BTDC and then will check it with my timing light to see what my full advance is and go from there.

you can check your actual TDC easily enough shag...use the "positive stop" meathod...get out an old sparkplug and weld a bolt to the end....put it in the number one (you can actually use *any* of the cylinders here, but yours are all easy to get to so use number 1) turn the engine by hand slowly till the piston contacts the stop....note degree mark on the pulley(at the seam) then rotate the engine backwards till it touches the stop again....note degrees on the pulley...true TDC will be halfway between the two marks at the "stop" position.... then you can trust the pulley if you know how accurate it is(compensate for any difference, mine is about a degree off)....once you know for sure ,set the timing at about 30BTDC at full advance(the standard 3000rpms is fine)....you can go as much as 32, but it isn't always necessary to go that far....i'd try 30 first then you can bump it up to 32 to see if the engine "likes" that....

Too late... Already did that... a few years ago for the LCB...

:-) You may have beenthe one who described the technique of how to do that to me the lasttime. I still have the spark plug with the bolt welded to it. I'mlazy. I just don't see how 2 different pulleys that both are keyedfor the crank key thingie could be off by the same amount. Plus sinceit's right at 32 BTDC for *static* timing and the recommendation is 32BTDC for *total* advance, I'm guessing that whoever set the timinglast may have just dialed it in for 32 BTDC. I really think thetiming marks on both pulleys are correct. Who knows, if I get upearly enough tomorrow and have a LOT of time to kill before everyoneelse wakes up then maybe I'll go to the trouble of using my fancymodified spark plug to find *real* TDC. I'm just really hopeful thatretarding the timing by 25 degrees or so from where it is now willhelp the hard-start problem. At the very least I don't see how itcould *hurt* any. :-)

im with ya shag....if the two pulleys read the same its a good chance that they are accurate...as far as them being keyed and that translating to being accurate, not so...the degree rings only come either engraved, screenprinted or attatched to the pulley, so they can and sometimes are "off"...but not usually that far....do a simple test to make sure the distributor isn't "locked out" ....pop the cap and twist the rotorshaft to the left...it should move, then "spring" back....if it doesn't the distributor could be locked out(read: no advance) and therefore set for "max" advance....but i doubt it...with it set at 32 BTDC static, it would top out around

50-52(approx) BTDC running at full advance, and the vehicle *will*run there...and maybe even *seem* to run well there...but it tends to overheat and detonate....and that can cause sudden loss of power that goes away after the engine sits for a bit and cools down...it usually comes on at highway speed or high load conditions(large grades) and is like a dead miss and can go as far as total stall...not good for the engine....at startup it should crank over slow and struggle to crank....kind of a slow weak sounding(sometimes seeming to actually stop) cranking, compared to normal faster/smoother cranking...

I did do that earlier today, just to see uh... if it would move like I thought it should move and it did. I could "advance" it manually like that and it would spring right back.

Which describes *exactly* the symptoms I've been seeing so far. Earlier I told my wife how I could see the extra advance make for hard starting and she asked if it could also make it run crappy after running it hard (on the highway kinda thing) and I told her I could also see the extra advance making it run hot and causing it to detonate and...and...and... exactly what you said. Man, I hope that this is the problem I've been trying to nail down. Hmm... and it would run just fine on the trails... where I was putting along without revving the motor very high...not getting into the full advance... it *seems* to be making more and more sense now. I'll find out soon enough. Thanks for the feedback. Yeah... slow weak sounding startup.... that is EXACTLY what it seems like... and I could see why... firing too early fighting "back" against the pistons instead of... you know. Damn.... this has GOT to be it... Must.... not... go out in the garage.... now..... Must wait until...... tomorrow....

I see the light from here....I agree you are "onto" something here...here....set that timing and take a ride...I think will see a change...at over advanced the power is "peaky" too....at a more correct setting it is a smooth power "band"...a smoother sounding engine, and just "smoother" ...I think you follow me here...

On Fri, 13 May 2005 22:42:03 -0400, "Joey Tribiani" scribbled this interesting note:

Which just goes to show, when you first get a used vehicle, go over it bit by bit and find the "bugs" the previous owner left for you to discover!:~)

-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

or you just might get to buy new p&c and other wonderful bits that you destroyed overheating the engine.............possibly just buying a new engine altogether.

BTDT

Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply

MUADIB®

one small step for man,..... One giant leap for attorneys.

yes....i bought a used "running" engine from a fellow once..."freshly tuned and *ready* to go"...put it in, started it up, sounded good....didn't doublecheck anything....(this went into a freshly completed baja i built from two wrecked bugs)...drove it for two days, it ran "good"...then it happened...it spit smoke and flames and lost power....smoked badly for a couple weeks(and i mean BAD) till i had time to tear into it...the entire upper third of the number 1 piston was burned...at one point (the uppermost part, as installed) there was no piston "top" and no material down to the oil control ring...no wonder it smoked...but it still ran well...LOL....it as a timing issue...but with loud exhaust i never heard the detonation that was obviously taking place.....expensive, but very valuable lesson to do as John W suggested...

Yes, very strange.

It makes me wonder whether the mech adv in your dist is working, or stuck at full advance. Grab the rotor and turn it CW. It should turn about a cm and then snap back smartly when you release it.

If it doesn't, you need to fix your advance mech which will also fix your starting problem.

-

----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney snipped-for-privacy@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711 USA

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Hi Shag

The way I find TDC is to put the end of a screwdriver in #1 spark plug hole and turn the engine over slowly whilst holding the screw driver. You can feel the driver - rise - stop - and fall - again. When it stops at the top before going back down, thats TDC.

I guess also you disty could be "shag"ed !

Rich

Shag wrote:

On Sat, 14 May 2005 14:24:53 GMT, Shag scribbled this interesting note:

Get a better distributor to start with. You don't know how good that

009 is. It might be one of the rare good ones, but chances are against that. Or you could just do as you already suggest, start from scratch. If it were me and if I were having these difficulties, I'd yank the distributor and tear into it to double check function. Or I'd install a known good distributor and use it for comparison. Double check all the valve lash. Nail down the inaccuracies in the new pulley and make definitive marks on it as to where the various timing marks need to be (TDC, idle advance, full advance-those are the only ones you need to know anyway.)

You don't want to burn up an engine. Learn from the mistakes Chris admits to making!:~)

-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

That's not very accurate, since there is *very little* piston movement right at TDC where the crank goes past the highest point of travel. I would definitely do it Shaggie's way. Only I have a spark plug that' sbeen gurtted and threaded for an M10 bolt that I can screw through it and lock in place. You turn the engine one way first, until the piston meets the bolt. VERY lightly. Mark the spot on the pulley. Then turn teh engine the opposite direction until the piston hits the bolt again. mark the pulley. Your TDC is precisely half way between the marks you made, not even one degree off.

Jan

tricky wrote:

*puff puff pant pant* I lied. I went back out there and took that spark plug and ground the tip of it down again and took a punch and smashed out the center section where the electrode thingie normally is. Got a nice hollow center. Then I ground down the head of the bolt until it would *almost* fit into that hollowed out center. Then I tapped that bolt in so it was fitting tighter than a.... well, let's just say it was TIGHT. I also mixed up some JB Weld and globbed it neatly around that bolt. It ain't going NOWHERE. (Yeah, I know that's a double negative. Deal with it. ;-) So then... I put the modified spark plug back in cylinder #1 spot, blah blah blah... and turned out that the pulley was DEAD ON. TDC on the pulley was, in fact, TDC. The piston contacted the bolt at exactly 35 degrees on each side of TDC mark on the pulley. OK... So now to DEFINITELY set the static timing correctly. I set it to where I *KNOW* it was at 5 degrees BTDC. Tightened down the nut to hold the distributor in place. A little more... a little more... a little more... Hmm... You guessed it. Stupid nut was stripped. Not the thread on the bolt, but the nut. (hmm... could this be how the engine *was* running ok but began to *not* run ok... timing is not guaranteed if the distributor is free to rotate around... hmmm...) Time to cuss and throw a few things. OK, got that done... Looked at the bolt closely... dang thing looks all bent to hell. Very nice. Meet Mr Dremel, biz-atch!!! bbbbzzzzzzzzz!!!!!! One bolt, cut in half... Removed the "nut" half of the bolt... and found the head end of the bolt was somehow permanently attached to the bracket thingie. Well, "permanent" can be a relative term. bbbbzzzzz!!!!!! Bye bye, bolt head!!! Still the body of the bolt was "permanently" stuck in there. Meet Mr Drill, you #$%&*!!! WHIRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!! SQEEEEALLLLLL!!!!!!! SQUEEEAL LIKE A PIG!!!!! No... wait, that was just a movie... One bolt, COMPLETELY gone. (Oh, I took pictures of all of this, by the way. I'll post them later to show off my crazy-mad machine-shop-kinda skillz.) So I found a bolt and a nut that fits perfectly. During all of this I'd removed the distributor so I put everything back into place and attached the distributor bracket back to the engine case with that nut... but... as my nut got tighter (heh heh) the damn bracket forced the distributor back up out of the hole enough to disengage the drive gear thingie. You know what I mean. I've heard horror stories where the distributor drive gear doesn't fully mesh and it grinds the gears all up and causes BIG problems, or maybe I just dreamed that. While I was drilling and stuff to remove that bolt, the bracket got slightly bent. I've had enough for today. Will have to remove the bracket and bend it a few times to get it just right so that I can be sure the distributor is FULLY seated. I'm still not counting on all of that fixing the problems I'm having with hard starting. I've actually tossed the idea around in my head a few times of towing the rail to a local air-cooled shop and having them figure out what the hell is wrong with it. I wish this had happened during the winter. I don't mind so much working on this kinda thing, but when it takes away from the offroading stuff... Well, that just sucks. But... things could be a LOT worse than they are. Stay tuned... and suggestions and ideas are always welcome. Thanks.

Yeah, I know, but I don't want to just throw parts at the problem. I'd like to figure out what's screwed up and address that problem. I'm trying to think of what changed. I mean everything WAS running great. Everything got soaking wet a few times... I wonder if I haven't somehow compromised that little ignition module thingie.

I'd love to do that if I had a known good distributor.

I did that this morning. All intake and exhaust valves are now set to .006". Engine was "overnight cold" when I did that.

I've done that now and am 100% confident in my timing marks on it.

You're damn right I don't. I'd never hear the end of it from family and friends. :-)

Hi Jan

While I bow to your superior race engine experience :-) , I was just trying to provide an aproximate, and easy, way to find TDC on a 'stock' engine, where a degree either way is a good starting point !

I do like the bolt idea, and will have to try it ! :-) . This is a new idea I have learn't from ramva .

Rich

Jan Anderss> That's not very accurate, since there is *very little* piston movement

Shaggie, if you want help tweaking that 009 let me know. I'll get one in my hand and show you the basics on webcam. I have a brand new one sitting around in a box.

Jan

Shag wrote: