Hey gang, I am calling all aircooled experts on this one. If I replace any more parts and they don't fix my problem, my wife will surely assasinate me.
My issues started a few months ago. My battery would go dead after long trips. I suspected a bad generator. It seemed to be putting out a good amount of voltage, but very low current. I had also been driving around with a leaky seal on my carb. I could smell the gas in the engine cabinet after a run, but I couldn't find a trace of fuel. Turns out, the gas had been spurting out and running right into the hold in the side of the generator (talk about a perfect alignment!).
Anyhow ... carb fixed, and alternator replaced.
Yet, a few weeks in, I was back to a randomly dead battery. When I say "dead" I mean "dead enough not to start the car". It's still got some juice, but not enough to even begin to turn the starter (I don't even get a click). If I can get a jump from a kind passer-by, I am back in business ... possibly for another week until it happens again!!
Being that the battery was well over 5 years old, I replaced it with a $20 purchase from Wal-Mart. Once again, I was road bound, no problem.
Here I am about 2 weeks later, my battery dead again.
What the heck is going on here? I don't know where to start. Could I have a drain somewhere? How would I find it?
Other brilliant ideas I have:
Bad solenoid (does a coil ever 'go bad'? mine looks VERY old)
Bad voltage regulator (or connections but they seem okay)
Something draining the battery
If anyone has ANY kind of clue, drop them on me. I appreciate any and all suggestions you all can offer.
-Ray
PS - When will they make an iPod holder/ash tray replacement? For those of us who embrace technology, yet adore smart old engineering. :-)
You've already avoided catastrophic fire and destruction.
It may sound stupid, but check to make sure your radio is not on--I've had batteries drained by this simple oversight before.
Also, check the battery itself--make sure the positive terminal is covered by a protector, and after that, start tracing current from the gen/alt forward. Check for current draw on the battery with everything shut down, and then trace to the switch or accessory drawing current. These anomolies usually turn out to be something simple.
SO FAR! ;-) But, I carry around a small extinguisher for when my luck runs out.
Actually, when I bought the car, I corrected that. The radio had been wired to constant power. I moved it over to ignition powered so the radio goes off with the car. BUT ... I did hook up the yellow "memory" wire to constant power to run the clock and keep my stations. Hell, if that's what's draining my battery, it's coming out. I don't use the radio. On a sunny say, I just roll down the windows and enjoy the buzz of the bug. Rest of the time, I put in my earbuds and use my iPod.
by a protector
I know for a fact that it is not covered. I wasn't aware that would cause problems.
Here's another related question ... could it be a bad ground? My ol' ground strap seems to do it's job, but it is a little on the corroded and rusty side. Would a semi-functional ground cause me these issues?
Could you give me a layman's idea of how to do that? I'm not completely helpless around a multi-meter, but I have zero skill at tracking down power loss. Am I watching for the battery to climb down a fraction of a volt while the car is shut off? I know ideally I want to be watching the amperage/current for something like this. But I don't have a meter that would help me measure or monitor that.
By the way, thank you for this helpful advice. ;-)
Put your meter across the battery terminals. Running at fast idle, you should read around 13.5 to 14.5 V. If so, it's charging.
To check for "drain" when not in use, remove the battery Negative cable. Connect your meter from the cable end to the battery Neg post. Switch the meter to read 100 Milliamp scale (or whatever is close). If you read ~20 Milliamp or less, there is no significant drain.
You might want to rig up the voltmeter with long wires so you can put the meter on the passenger seat and monitor what happens on a long trip.
Sorry about your problem Ray; that is no fun at all! You've been given lots of good advice thus far, but, there may be a simpler way to get to the root of it.
The problem is one of two (obviously ) either the battery is NOT being charged when the engine is running, OR, it IS being charged but drains dry when the engine is not running. I think we can all agree on this?
First off, did you follow the suggestion to verify that your battery IS being charged when the engine is running? If you read a voltage in the range of 13.5 to 14.5 volts, or thereabouts across the battery terminals, your generator is working, and the battery is being charged. You must measure AT the battery itself. If its under the back seat, raise it up, and have someone hold the engine at a fast idle.
Given that the above is true, and your charging system is in good order, then the "damage" is being done when the engine is shut off, as there has to be a continual drain on the battery.
First off, since its likely a simple thing to do, disconnect that radio wire that "keeps your stations" to eliminate it as a problem for now. You can hook it ack up later. Next, locate your FUSE block. On my '67 Bug it was behind the dash and easily reached. Use your voltmeter and find a "hot" point with the ignition OFF. That hot terminal will connect to one end of several of the fuses. Locate EVERY fuse that is "hot." Gently touch every one of the fuses. Do you feel any heat? Next, if you have a multimeter, i.e., a box that can measure current as well as dc volts, switch it to read dc current. To be safe, if you have several current ranges, switch first to the highest range. Now look at the first fuse that is "hot." Gently lift up the "cold end," i.e., the end at the far side from where the voltage is being applied. Now gently place the two test probes at each end of the fuse clips. You should read NO current. Carefully switch your meter range down a notch and try to read current again. Anything? If you get all the way to the lowest range and read nothing, you can be sure THAT particular circuit is safe. Now, snap the first fuse back in place, and "up end" the 2nd fuse that is "hot" (has voltage on it). Reset your meter to its highest range and repeat the steps you just did. Most likely ONE of there fuses will have a current draw, and THAT is why your battery is being drained. Once you identify WHICH fuse has a current drain with the ignition OFF, you're almost there. Assuming you find this "bad" circuit, identify WHAT the fuse does. With the fuse removed, WHAT electrical item no longer works? You should now be able to find the problem.
On the other hand, if there is NO current draw thru ANY of the fuses with the ignition off, (with that radio lead disconnected), then none of your cars electrical items are at fault. The problem then has to be between the battery and the fuse block. Verify this by placing your current meter, first on the highest range, right at the battery in series with the battery terminal and the battery cable. Also, note whether the heavy battery cable has one or two wires connected along with the main cable that goes to your starter. If it does, then one of these likely goes up to the fuse block. If the battery cable has NO xtra small wires attached to it, then go to the other end where it attaches to the starter, there will have to be a wire there that goes up to the fuse block.
The comment about a "cover" over the hot terminal of the battery was a good one. This red or yellow (usually) plastic cover keeps something ABOVE the battery terminal from shorting against it. In my '67 Bug, that I just sold, the battery was on the passenger side under the back seat. With no protective cover it could be possible that someone sitting in the back seat could press down the seat frame or a spring and cause a short. Not nice!
I had a 1947 Cushman Motor Scooter (I still have it!). It has a one cylinder engine sitting upright, and the spark plug stands straight UP. I sit on an upholstered seat above it, and, at one point, the upholstery was ragged. As I bounced up/down on the scooter going down the street, occasionally a spring would contact the tip of the spark plug and I would get quite a JOLT ! Talk about a "hot ride" ! :-)
Good luck,
Jim Get 1000's of air-cooled links at my web site below:
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On 19 Feb 2005 08:06:07 -0800, "Ray Dios Haque" wrote:
Hey Jim, thanks for the detailed advice. I have a new direction to troubleshoot.
I decided (against my better judgement) to drive the bug out to my part time job yesterday across town. It required a quick jump of course to get her going. I ran the leads from my multimeter through the passenger seat and stuck them into the battery terminals.
While idling at a light, I get about 12.5 to 12.8 volts. As I approach
3rd and 4th gear it will hop up to a natural 13 and some change. And when I got on the highway, I was 14+ volts. All seems to be charging well.
For a general "drainage" test, when I got to work I cut the engine off, and then removed the negative terminal from the battery. It was not noly a test, but also hopes that I would not be begging for a jump to get myself back home.
I worked a part time shift last night of about 5 hours. When I got back out, I hooked up the negative terminal and cranked it. She started, but it was NOT a strong start. It sounded like a weak battery to me. Once I got going and left onto the highway, all seemed well. But even after getting off the highway after 25 minutes, I still saw the ocassional red flicker on the speedo'. This could just be because it was a tad cold here in Ohio, and I have my air idle screw set very low. By low, we're talking "turned completely in, and then half a turn out". Or as John Muir would tell you, "just enough idle to get you through a red light".
Could I have purchased "the wrong battery". When I went shopping for one at Wal-Mart their little vehicle looker-upper only had NEW Bugs in them, not the good aircooled kind. So I had to make a guess. I went for the smallest battery they had that was still an automotive battery. It was about the same physical size as the one I removed. Yet, I'm not sure of the specs on it. But I am beginning to think that matters.
If I remember correctly, the different batteries had various "cranking amps" readings on them. What am I looking for ideally in that department?
I am not by any stretch a bug expert, but could it be that your alternator/generator is bad? It might be charging ok. Internally alternators have several diodes inside that make the generated AC into DC. Besides doing that, they also make sure that the battery cannot drain itself through the alternator when the car is shut off.
I've seen it (non bug experience) where one of those diodes is shorted. The effect is that the battery has drained below a useable voltage after the car is being left for a bit. The car may still generate a decent charging voltage, because the charging regulator makes up for the defect.
Hook a DVM set to current between the fattest lead of the alternator and make sure there's no current flowing with the car turned off. If you see currrent, your alternator needs to be repaired.
Yes, "size matters". Not physical size of the battery case, but rated Cranking Amps. Look for one with 500 Amps or more. (CCA at zero deg will be less)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a charged battery supposed to put out approximately 13.8 volts? I know it is MORE than 12 volts, as each of the six cells in a battery is about 2.2 volts (that's just the chemistry behind the lead acid battery)... hence MORE than 13 volts total... So, if the meter is reading as low as 12.5 volts at idle, I'd say he may even be discharging! Something seems wrong... I would expect that there should be battery charging going on EVEN AT IDLE RPM.
Charged battery shows 12.6V (or a bit higher). He has a generator which may not charge at all at idle (he even reports the GEN Light comes on because his idle speed is low). With the Gen not charging at idle and the usual loads on the battery, it's not too surprising that voltage is below 12.6V.
This sounds pretty near perfect, as if the charging system is working just fine.
That's a very good test.
I agree. If you repeat the test with the same results a few times, that would be pretty convincing.
You want a "Group 42" battery. I'm not sure, but this is probably the same size as used by modern "New" Beetles.
Group 42 batteries can be bought in different ratings. My experiences with discount store batteries has been reasonable, although I've not bought one at Wal Mart.
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----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney snipped-for-privacy@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711 USA
You sure are getting a LOT of good advice and suggestions here! Too bad we're ALL not there with you in Ohio. After a good pizza and a few pitchers we could go out and look at your Bug!
Seriously tho, you mention in your last note that you had removed the neg batt cable. GOOD idea! You did not followup tho... I really was looking for: ".... and then, with the ignition off, I put my meter in the line and..." I didn't SEE that. What is the current draw with the ignition off and your meter in the neg batt cable line? Start off with the meter on the highest range and then switch it down one range at a time. Do you read ANYTHING? This is the MOST important test you can make, other than the one you already made which indicates that your charging system does seem to be working O.K.
All that you describe is consistant with a generator equipped Bug. A low idle speed, and a flickering dash light certainly indicates the generator is putting out essentially "zero" at that low rpm level. I always set mine just high enough so that, with the radio on, (almost always "on" in my car), the red light was "off." I think that was about 500 / 600 rpm.
Gee Ray, its obvious to me, and other guys here, that you CARE about your Bug. Why be so "chincy" on parts for it? If you really value it, and want good service from it, do not cut corners with cheap Wal Mart batteries. Buy the BEST battery you can get that will "fit" in the space available. I always did that and my 67 Bug NEVER let me down, ever. I always bought a 60 or 72 month warranty type battery. Also, because the batt is hard to get to, under the rear seat, I always bought a "sealed" type battery, i.e., one you never had to add water too. Is your Wal Mart battery a :sealed" type? But, if you really can't afford a good battery, and must use a cheap type that you have to add water too, at least use either deionized water OR "steam iron" water from the grocery store. This will help reduce a build up of "crud" sloshing around at the bottom of the battery case which will lead to trouble over time.
I want to say the battery was 630 or 640 "cranking amps". There is a sticker on the top that says so, but I can't check it ... because I'm not driving it today. :-)
I left the battery all hooked up and let it sit a good 15 hours. It had PLENTY of juice, and all I have unhooked since it left me empty is the radio. However, we have had this nasty col wet weather here in Ohio, and my carb was not having it!! So after 5 minutes of consecutive attempted starts I concluded that.
(a) The mystery may not be solved, but my battery was very well charged! (b) I would once again be driving my wifes Honda to work.
While the Honda has superior steering, transmission, and a factory "cup holder", I much prefer my "lack of features" and slow-to-go drive to work.
Nothing against cup-holders. I do keep a black roll of duct tape in the passenger seat. The roll holds my beverage upright, and the tape it provides keeps my heater box lever in the 'upright' position.
And so ... once the rain here stops and my Bug's insides dry out ... I can try out some of the tips I have recieved.
Has anyone looked at the voltage regulator yet to see if it's functioning properly? If it's set 'wrong' it could very well be dumping part of the charging overboard. I know it's a separate unit until well into the '70's. I had a unit on another brand of car that was doing that because some mechanic had damaged it . . . .
I haven't replaced a generator since the '70's. All the vehicles I've had since then have had alternators, and most of them have built in voltage regulators. There was a time that the voltage regulator was a separate unit, and it did make a difference. One unit had a capacitor in the connection of one line to ground for reference and without that capacitor /ground link, the doggone thing would not charge very well. Some mechanic knocked the capacitor off the side of the voltage regulator. In those days it was a 15 cent part. We found a used voltage regulator to replace it. (Couldn't get new parts in those days very easily.) Problem solved.
Then there was the time the dealer wanted 2200 for just parts. Turns out all we needed was a new battery. The old one was slowly dying and wasn't providing the right base voltage/amperage for all the emissions controls to work properly.
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