freon replacement for '90 Volvo GL? - - help a poor girl

Thanks...

I guess the mention that he was posting from a German server had me thinking that .au. was Austria.

You're welcome. There's actually an ISO standard that defines the two letter shortnames for countries and territories - ISO 3166. If you're ever interested, here's what the chart looks like:

Handy chart.

Thanks again.

I don't happen to believe in the "positive-feedback system in nature" theory upon which most of the "global warming" stuff is based.

I am, however, inclined to believe that CFCs and HFCs do indeed cause breakdown of ozone in the atmospheric "ozone layer", causing a reduction in the effectiveness of this essential natural UV filter... That is moderated, however, by the awareness that the ozone density varies naturally and the natural variation may be more significant than the effects of CFCs and HFCs.

Lucky I don't know this Lloyd Parker. :-) I've heard the name mentioned, and may have seen one or two posts in the past, but your comments make it sound like I'm not missing much...

Good to see that you've lightened up. :-)

It was my question about running propane/butane blend in A/C that started this little err... discussion. :-)

Well, in this particular vehicle, the lines are all 5/16 ID hose, but the other option if I'd felt like doing it the cheap way would have been copper...

Using propane/butane blend gets the same pressures as R12, the same thermodynamic properties, etc., so if the aluminium pipes are okay for R12, they work the same with propane/butane.

It's the best you're getting. :-p

Aside from mentioning that the answer is on my web site along with some info about the straight-LPG Volvo, I'll give you this clue: 32deg 56min S, 151deg 39min E using WGS 84 datum.

Oh, okay, so the collected stuff from decommisioned systems is sold back for re-use?

Okay. Fair enough.

I don't actually have a problem with the morality of that, but I do think that it is very contradictory to then turn around and ban a relatively environmentally benign equivalent on the basis that, _if_ it somehow escapes from a sealed system that is operating at pressures for which all of the components are designed, if might be more flammable than that which it replaces (even though the products of that combustion are less toxic).

Oi. You're spoiling the fun. :-p

This alone is enough to make one suspicious of the claims being made. Meanwhile, I do my best to abide by the law, follow the rules and keep the gummint off my back.

Lloyd is a trip. Far as anyone knows, he eventually spent so much time posting to usenet during work hours that he received a reprimand from his employer (Emory University). He still posts, but hasn't shown his ugly mug in any of the automotive groups in months. No loss.

So the chance of a leak from a fracture from impact is minimized.

In my mind, a bad choice due to what happens to copper tubing from vibration.

Except that in this country, the regulations regarding pressurized flammable gasses as installed on an automobile used on the public highways dictate that they meet certain safety criteria.

I guess it's already been established that you're in Australia. Or am I wrong again? (not that it really matters)

Yes, depending on the venue where it's collected, laws vary from state to state plus the federal regulations. At the repair shop level, R-12 is recovered, recycled and then it can be reinstalled in a vehicle. I believe that junkyards have different rule WRT what they can do with reclaimed R-12, but I can't comment in fact since I don't work in that part of the industry and have seldom contact with junkyards.

HC refrigerants are not banned, as I mentioned before, the stuff is as common at swap meets and flea markets as rusty Craftsman combination wrenches. The whole point of why it is not allowed to be used in mobil air conditioning systems is that its safety in use as a substitute refrigerant has not yet been demonstrated

-to- the regulatory agencies that have oversight over such things. Other products with similar price and intended use

-have- been demonstrated and okayed by the EPA, so it's not like it's an impossible daunting task, so one would think that if this stuff is truly all that safe, it would have happened already. It's like how you can't graduate 8th grade until you pass you final exams no matter how smart you are.

I would also point out that even -if- HC refrigerants were allowed to be used, as the rules now stand, they'd -still- have to be recovered and recycled if the system were opened in the course of performing service on an automotive AC system. Those are the rules. Now the question becomes; will the repair industry accept yet another refrigerant and the requirements for handling and storage given that we already have 2 de-facto accepted refrigerants in current use? My guess is no.

As for the issue of toxicity, I have never heard of anyone being poisoned as a result of a fire where R-12 was ingested into the flame of the fire, i.e., a car crash or a situation where a mechanic was smoking a cigarette, etc. while servicing an R-12 system. Yes, R-12 when combusted turns into toxic gas, we were all warned during AC training not to vent R-12 into the intake system of a running vehicle, but in over 25 years of servicing AC, I've never seen or heard of it happening.

Geez. How many of these jewels can you spew forth?

I used to consider Australia a place that I might like to live, since the US is heading further down the collectivist bed-wetting path with each passing year. But if your clarity of thought is any example, forget it. And I guess there IS an up-side to you aussies having given your guns away- you, for example, are a danger to yourself and others even without one.

What part of "recycle" is too complicated for you to understand? The US was the first nation to QUIT manufacturing R-12. It is illegal to import. That which is available for sale is a combination of old stock and recycled R-12. No one is "adding to the problem" over here. Now stick that in your US-hating pipe and smoke it for all I care.

I think just about every country has its collection of loonies. Pauline Hanson is a fine one down under.

Wasn't the intention, but it's a side effect. I was just too lazy to play with bending copper lines, flare nuts and double flares, etc.. The hose ends are very easy to install. :-)

Copper lines are used _as per US practice_ for lines between the LPG cylinder and the filter-lock in the engine bay provided that they are on the same component. If one is mounted on the chassis and the other on the body, hose is required (but often not fitted in practice).

Considering that I'm posting this in a Volvo group, I'll mention an odd thing that I've noticed about copper brake pipes...

Our state registration authority allows copper brake lines on the body of vehicles but not on suspension parts such as rear axle housings and front struts. That's for modified vehicles.

So I was rather surprised to discover while overhauling the front suspension and brakes on my 264 that all of the brake pipes on the front struts and rear axle housings of all three Volvos that I have here are original copper...

You'll be pleased to know that my wife is involved in national level competition with pistols, and collected a new TC yesterday. :-)

Australia is unfortunately becoming more like the USA in many ways.

We still have a long way to go before we'll be as bad as the USA is right now, though. :-)

I see. So instead of high temperature incineration to break down the recovered R12 such that it ceases to be R12, you think putting it back into cars so that a significant percentage can leak out into the atmosphere is a good thing? That percentage that ends up back in the atmosphere is why I said that the USA is "continuing to add to the problem."

My problem is that the R-12 now costs so much more. As for the pollution, you could purposely let a pound of it evaporate and cause less damage than a few hours from most industrial sources.

Every time I go to pay my gas bill, I drive past a diner and there's a huge amount of black smoke and such coming from the vent on the grill. And that's just one source.

Now, they aren't releasing CFCs, but there are thousands of sources that do in every city on a scale that's larger than leaking cars.

I saw a show on NOVA the other day about the Earth's EM fields and it looks like the are heading into two events in the next couple of hundred years at once - an ice age and a pole reversal.

The later one is important - as it happens, the EM field strength temporarily lowers and that makes the ozone holes appear and grow. This is expected to last about 2000 years and then the planet will recover, with the poles reversed.

But while it happens, the radiation belts will be much thinner. Not enough to cause a problem(maybe double the rate of cancer and not much else - btw, this also naturally encourages rapid evolution changes), but the whole process if far FAR more powerful than anything we are doing to the planet with our puny pollution.

Of course, smog is bad - so reducing it is good. A couple of percentage points lower ozone content is also a bad thing, but not a disaster.

My father was on about prophets predicting that stuff at least 10 years ago! :-)

IIRC, they were also talking about the axis of rotation shifting in conjunction with the pole shift...

Heh. Ants in a terrarium while a kid whacks the glass comes to mind. Nothing we do short of killing off the oceans will make a difference compared to these massive natural forces.

I'm a Scorpio engineer; don't waste my time, I'm right!

Ed

I seriously doubt you found "original copper" brake lines on any Volvo, made in any year, sold in any market.

DS

There's lots of info on the internet about this. You can find out that the mixture should be 60/40 propane/isobutane or 78/22. Both isobutane (R600a) and propane (R290) are considered refrigerants by themselves.

There is a problem with this mixture that is common with any refrigerant blend - the exact proportions are critical for the physical properties. The molecules are different sizes, so leak out at different rates, interfering with the properties of the blends. This compromises system performance and complicates service and is the reason no auto makers ever used a blend. (Note: R12 and R134a are both single molecule refrigerants.)

Another problem with this is supply - often when you buy propane (or isobutane), it's far from pure and contains moisture.

And of course there's the old, "It's going to leak out, become a bomb and kill us all." argument. Actually the risk is very low, there's so little involved, and the air fuel mixture has to be fairly precise for any explosion, but it is possible in an enclosed garage, or an underground garage where the heavier than air propane may pool.

I believe in some European markets, "brake pipes" as they call them are indeed made from some copper-containing alloy, or at least are available aftermarket (and are legal) as I've seen them mentioned and advertised in some British VW magazines (I used to have a neighbor who had an English wife and was a huge VW fan; he'd pass on his magazines to me when he was done with them)

AFAIK non-steel brake lines are not legal for street use in the US however. Now I have seen steel lines with a copper-colored coating, but that is something completely different.

nate

The same problem arises when filling an R12 system with many of the "drop-in" R12 replacements available in the US. As far as I know, all of them are blends. No A/C service center will service the system, and as Mike points out, due to differential rates of leaking the blend composition and refrigeration properties will change over time.