(Lack of) appeal of older Volvos (240)

I recently purchased my first Volvo, a 92 240 wagon. I love it, it's clean inside and out, not much rust, higher than average mileage but well maintained and in good operating condition. I was looking for a roomy winter car and think I got that and a whole lot more. There are so many qualities that go with a 240 Volvo wagon, that all of you know (safety, solid engineering, ergonomic comfort, spacious cargo, durable drivetrain, etc.). I have read some people say that they thought the

240 was possibly the best car that Volvo ever built.

Oddly enough, I also own a 1982 Mercedes-Benz 240, a diesel sedan. It shares many of the qualities of the Volvo listed above (except cargo space obviously). Both fine cars, that in good condition and with proper care and maintenance, could potentially last another 10 years (maybe more with the Benz, as I don't drive it in the winter).

Now the reality is that I didn't pay much for my Volvo, and I see many others of that vintage selling for very low dollars locally. Mind you, many of them are probably rusted through so are not worth much, but some look like very nice specimen. So I am asking myself: if these vehicles are so well built, so durable, possess all those qualities, why aren't there more people seeking them out (thereby increasing used prices by supply and demand)?

I have come across a few people who had bought solid old Volvos as first car for their kids, only to have the kids say "I don't want to drive in that ugly thing!", and the parent is forced to sell. So looks are part of it, the 240 (especially) has outdated lines (some would call that "classic"). Plus they are getting older, and a lot of people won't touch a used car that's more than 3-4 years old. I have a feeling that ignorance is probably mostly to blame for people shunning older Volvos. I can't help thinking that maybe, like in other aspects of our society, there is a kind of "dumming down" of the population mainstream. People generally don't care what's under the hood of a car anymore, and the vast majority never look under there. NO interest in how the vehicle is designed, except that it have a good stereo and go like the wind when they step on the gas. Longevity, cost of ownership (most people go for expensive leases now!), seems secondary in most people's mind to color, looks, sex appeal, whatever.

Oh well, I suppose this ignorance is a blessing for those of us who favour older cars like Volvos, because it ensures plentiful supply of cheap cars and parts. However, something nags at me, to try to explain why someone would rather buy a 4 year old Dodge Neon or Chevy Cavalier or Kia (or choose your favorite piece of cr*p car), rather than a safer, better designed, and probably longer-lived older vehicle like a Volvo or Mercedes... It's a mystery to me...

Reply to
robert.st-louis
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Must be where you live. In northern California a decent 240 is very difficult to find and much sought after.

Howard.

Reply to
Howard Nelson

How much can you get for a used kid? Maybe they could trade it for another Volvo!

And that's a big part of why they can be had for reasonable prices. I would rather have a 20 year old Volvo than a five year old Ford Taurus. Like cardboard interiors? Get a GM product!

Do you ride a motorcycle? You would say that it isn't ignoarance- it's stupidity!

Ya... Americans have always been so educated and wise when it comes to motor vehicles in general. That's why Harley outsells BMW and Ducati.

It's pretty much the same reasons why the divorce rate is over 50%- people are more interested in how it looks, how fast it goes from 0 to bedroom, and what it is worth than what's inside or how long it will last.

I second that. I looked for quite some time for:

-240

-wagon

-light color

-stick The car I got was not in the condition that the owner nor the shop said it was, but it is solid, rust-free from what I can tell, and has a pretty good drive train (good, strong motor with very low oil consumption).

__ __ Randy & \ \/ /alerie's \__/olvos '90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate "Shelby" & "Kate"

1948 Chrysler and parts car - for sale 1983 Chevy Blazer 4wd - for sale 1974 Ford Pickup 4wd - garbage hauler
Reply to
Randy G.

I agree with you in toto up to here, however there is a tipping point about Harleys--they have just such a powerful aura such a rep, even though a Gold Wing or a BMW would make more sense for all the reasons I just bought a '94

940 turbo with 170 on it for $2000, there is just this special pull that is based upon so many cultural things that will most likely have me and my wife (advice from other Harley biker girls to here outside a biker bar we went to hang out at "make sure he buys you a seat with armrests BEFORE you ever get on it, hun") in the next years.

There is a Yami--the FJR1300 that does look good however. OTOH many Americans are fat, me and my wife included, and Harley and to a lesser extent, Honda have made their machine fit us as we are rather then as we were when we first wanted a bad ass bike and went to college, bought a house, got married etc...

LOL I have been laughed at time and time again when I suggest an old Volvo, BMW, or MB to folks--I also am partial to well maintained 4 cyl Hondas, and quite frankly I think american iron like the new Malibu or the all time up side down mobile, the Dodge stratus/Chrysler sebring (~$10k 2 yrs old wholesale) are also quite good alternatives, however the neon and kia whatever will always sell to people who believe new is good and old is bad.

Reply to
Steve

Just as you said, most people are ignorant and don't care at all what's under the skin, they want a car that's "cool" and looks like a flashy plastic toy. That said, there's plenty of people out there who got a Volvo thinking it was ugly and then it grew on them as they got to know it. I've converted a few people myself. 240s are not flashy but they're solid well designed cars that will last a long time and personally I love the clean functional look, built to work and built to last.

Reply to
James Sweet

I quite agree, but OTOH bits like pedal rubbers, hoses... can be expensive and there is not the ready supply of recon radiators, motors etc when they finally do pack up. It can get to the point where you throw away a great body (I've seen many in yards) because it will cost much more to fix the motor than a more common younger piece of crap. And being relatively rare, most don't know that much about them. While they are a great buy as an old car, I wouldn't pay a lot for one.

Reply to
jg

Huh? Good used motors are easy to come by, they're a dime a dozen since they hardly ever fail. Radiators and other parts are easy to find too.

Reply to
James Sweet

Volvo motors may last a long time, but in my experience the bodies last even longer in comparison to many other cars. But it doesn't seem to make sense that something which hardly fails would be a dime a dozen, specially when cheaper cars outnumber them many many times. Wouldn't ppl keep them until they do fail? It's got to be easier and cheaper to buy recon, after market and used parts for something which there are hundreds more of... and which fail more often?

Reply to
jg

Speaking as a 240 owner, I'd say the low market value in many areas comes down to these issues:

  • Fuel economy. It's hard to find a four cylinder car that gets less than 25 MPG, but you have to work to get a 240 automatic UP to that figure. Our Camry weighs the same, has the same size engine, automatic trans, and gets from 4 to 10 MPG more when driven exactly the same way as the 240. That's *average*, not highway MPG.

  • Reliability. This isn't what it sounds like, as 240s are no more likely to break down than any other car of the same age. What they ARE likely to do, however, is require very regular preventative repairs (plastic radiator replacement, flame trap service, throttle body cleaning, etc) that Japanese cars need much less often. We've had the 240 for 6 years, and it's been worked on at least as much as much as my 20 year old Civic Si. Our '95 Camry, while not perfect, is a fuel-thrifty, reliable

*dream* in comparison.

  • Glitches. Closely related to reliabilty, but not things that disable, or threaten to disable, the car. The radios fail, the seat heaters fail, the fan motors fail, the hood latches fail, the tailights fill with water, etc.

  • Age. They stopped making them in '93. I'd think twice about buying a '93 *anything* in 2005, and most 240s are much older than the '93's, not to mention less sophisticated.

So in short, the 240 is a tank. Like a tank it is rugged, long-lived, great in a crash, bad on fuel, requires regular (virtually monthly) maintainance, is fun to drive but not Sporty, and isn't the best car for the typical, non-shade-tree-mechanic driver. It's a niche car, with a devoted following.

Reply to
Michael Cerkowski

I agree with all those points, Michael, and would add that Volvo's reputation for ruggedness has diminished in the last decade with the advent of the FWD/AWD cars. While the older models shouldn't be affected by that new perception, they are.

Toyotas and Hondas are the new holders of the "reliable" reputation, and as with the older Volvos they can be expected to last 200-300K miles. Honda is losing ground recently because of the automatic transmission problems with the 6 cylinder engines. Toyota has been the stodgy marque anyway, more in line with the Volvo tradition. When you factor in at least the perception of better fuel economy (although 6 cylinder Accords are in the same economy league as later 240s) Volvo is just not as attractive.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

My Pumpkin Orange144 is 31 years old. Nearly as old as I am. With the exception of a slight paint fade on the fender is is in excellent condition. I'm curious what that car says about me. Is it a "classic" or just an "old car"? I used to never buy a car that was older than me. Then I wouldn't buy a car that was older than my driver's license. Then the age cut off changed to my wedding date. All rather random limitations. Now the only rule I follow is that I will only buy a car for myself that is emissions test exempt. That means that it must be pre-1975. Of course my wife drives the one year old Hyundai...

Reply to
e

Well they may not fall apart, but they do get wrecked. All three of the U-pull yards near me normally have from 6 to a couple dozen Volvos, the motors are almost always there, and they're only $100-$150 for a good running one or $50-$75 for a mostly complete core. There's just not much demand for them and they're usually in good condition still. I've gotten several fairly new radiators at those same yards too.

Reply to
James Sweet

I am on board with this.

Most car buyers don't want a car that is a minimum of 12 years old. Americans think that older cars are necessarily unreliable and that newer cars are necessarily better. Most Americans think that 100,000 miles is a very good lifespan for a car, and that after that many miles the car is no longer safe to operate. And finally, in America cars are seen as an extension of the driver; there is not a lot of prestige in an old car (until the car is old enough to be a "classic" car).

Volvo enthusiasts, on the other hand, know that most 240s are good for

200,000 to 400,000 miles. They are safe, durable and dependable. If one followed the rather detailed maintenance schedule, someone who bought a Volvo at 40 could plan on leaving it for the children as an inheritance. Of course, this maintenance schedule led to the belief that Volvos are "expensive" cars to own and operate- never mind that maintenance is cheaper than a new car.

I'll admit quite selfishly that I am pleased by this. I can buy a 240 for cash at a very reasonable price, spend a reasonable amount of money in maintenance, and drive it for years. If I had a garage to work in, a few more tools and a lot more time I could do much of the work myself.

240s are great home mechanic cars.
Reply to
Tim McNamara

Rarity probably depends on where you live. Here in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, you almost can't drive a block without seeing at least 1 Volvo 240. There are thousands of them on the roads around here.

Reply to
Tim McNamara

Your Camry weighs 3800 pounds? I had no idea they were that heavy.

My 1990 240 sedan gets 25 mpg average all the time. I've never had to "work" to improve mileage, that's just what it gets. Best highway mileage was 29.5 mpg earlier this summer, running a bit lean due to a malfunctioning AMM. My wife's 1993 240 wagon gets about 24 mpg on average.

Reply to
Tim McNamara

As an American, I can say that is a generalization. I prefer cars with at least 80K miles on the odometer, and 100K is right in the sweet spot. Our

765T was an exception - it had only 60K. At 50K miles it is hard to tell how the car has been treated; at 100K it is hard to hide.

The last used car I bought was my daughter's '93 Honda Accord, at 163K miles. It now has 210K and is still going strong. But the critical issue is "who is going to do the maintenance?" Buying a high mileage car requires enough savvy to know what to look for and a willingness to do maintenance yourself. Most cars in that range are due for a timing belt change (in fact, it is a common trigger for the sale) and having a shop do that increases the cost sharply. Taking the car to a shop for brake jobs or drive axle changes is also a tough row to hoe.

I am active in several other car groups, and this one has certainly the highest expected level of DIY of any of them (although Honda comes close).

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

What amazed me was when I compared the '84 Nissan 300ZX two-seater I had with our '85 765 turbo wagon - the weights were within 100 lbs of each other, and the wagon had a slightly tighter turning radius! Fuel economy was essentially identical; 20 mpg for each.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

While I admit I haven't specifically gone looking for a motor, there is a specialist volvo wrecker here (Perth Western Australia) and most others have hardly any. They would have maybe 40 bodies & many in good cond., but sure they have nowhere near that many motors or gearboxes which wouldn't leave much to choose from in a specific model. Volvos here are invariably advertised for wrecking with good bodies, but rarely good mechanicals. While it's likely you would find a good motor here, it would probably not be as cheap or easy to find as say a ford or toyota. And those last maybe 350,000 km well treated and a head gasket at half time. Might be a question of how many new ones are sold, volvos are not real popular here... or cheap.

Reply to
jg

Learn the difference between GROSS weight and CURB weight. Volvo 240s are between 2860-3035lb for a sedan and 2980-3091 for a wagon.

Which is really horrible for a relatively underpowered car. Even worse when you have the AW71 without the lock up torque converter or absolute worst one of the 3 speed BW35 automatics. If you have a 240 Turbos you'll _never_ see 25mpg. I've owned seven 240s over the last 16 years including sedans, wagons, manuals, autos, turbos and NA and they all got lousy mileage. These days that's a serious knock to their attractiveness. I wouldn't give up my '84 242Ti, but I'm glad I'm not commuting with it.

Bill

Reply to
Bill Bradley

New Volvos cost around double the price of a ford falcon here in Australia. Is it the same there?

Reply to
jg

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