The 240 Saga Continues. Dead Battery? Or...?

Okay, I was here recently asking about my mechanics advice to take care of a rusty flange by replacing my entire catalytic converter for around $900. I also knew I was in need of new brakes, which would cost about $300-$400. After getting feedback from you, I ended up taking the car to a local Midas shop. They took a look and said that while the flange is rusty, what was causing the noise was a gasket inside that needed replacing, which they did for me for a cost of $12 (which they ultimately forgot to charge me for). They said it could be another six months to three years before the converter needs to be replaced. They also took care of the brakes for me (which ended up need new calipers, if I'm spelling that right?) for a total cost of $515. That was Friday. The car now sounds and brakes great. Except...

I spent Saturday running all over the place doing errands all over town. Finally put the car in the garage around 6 p.m. I pulled it out again because I wanted to move something around in the garage. When I got back in the car to pull it in again, the car was completely dead. The seatbelt light did the ding-ding-ding sound when I put the key in, but, otherwise -- nothing. Turned the key -- nothing. 6:05 p.m. on a Saturday. So I got all panicky until someone reminded me I have a motor club and I called them. They sent someone out who attached a charger to the battery and it started right up. He took the charger off, and, after about a minute, the motor died and would turn over again. He attached the charger again and it started up. He recommended I keep it running for about 20 minutes to recharge the battery. So I asked him to wait while I pulled the car into the garage, in case it died again, and then I sat in the garage with the motor running (and garage doors open!) for the next 20 minutes, during which time I had to reset the radio as it had gone to CODE after the disconnection of power. After 20 minutes I shut off the motor, then tried to start the car again. Nothing.

So, my new question is: Does this sound like just a new battery? Or something more sinister? I just put $515 in the car and can't really afford another big hit this month. I explained to the auto club guy the work I'd just had done to the car and asked if any of that sounded like it could be causing the problem, and he said no. Anyone disagree with that? And is it worth me (walking to) Home Depot and buying a battery starter or booster or whatever for $40-$50 so I can start the car myself tomorrow? Of should I have the motor club do it again and drive it right to the service station? If I was sure it just needed a new battery, then I'd sooner have the motor club start the car and put that $40-$50 toward the new battery. But if it's something more than a dead battery causing the problem, maybe a self-charger is a good idea. Yikes! I'd love your feedback and advice. The car's sitting in the garage now, but I'm going to have to figure this out pretty quickly tomorrow as I'm facing a busy week and really need the car. HELP?!

Thanks, Patricia

Reply to
Patricia Butler
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Sounds like a battery problem but any good service station can do a quick analysis to see that your alternator and regulator are working well. I don't see much point in investing in a charger.

Chuck Fiedler

Reply to
c.fiedler

It sounds like a bad battery. I never even saw this sort of failure before about 1980, but since then I've seen a bunch. The symptoms (if I'm understanding yours right) are caused by a broken internal connection at one terminal of the battery. The shadetree test - that's what I use most of the time - is to turn on the headlights and watch them inbetween whacking the battery posts with a hammer. No kidding! A modest whack, like cracking a Brazil nut, will often jam the connection together. Being made of lead and kept out of the air, the connection temporarily welds itself together because of the headlight current and the lights come on. A better check is to measure the actual voltage on the battery posts while doing the same tests - any rise, even a volt, means a broken connection in the battery. Hammering on a good battery doesn't make the voltage rise :-)

The other possibility is that the alternator is not charging. I imagine the "battery" light has not come on. That leads to a quick test for the most likely (and one of the least expensive) alternator failures: worn out brushes. Turn the ignition switch to the "run" position so the warning lights come on. The battery light should also be on. If not, the brushes are not making contact. Brushes usually last about 150K miles - I don't know what your odometer is. The brushes are part of a regulator assembly that screws to the back of the alternator, making the repair quick and easy. I paid $35 about ten years ago for a replacement regulator assembly so I imagine they are $50 now. RockAuto.com lists the brush set (p/n GB299 by Standard Motor Products) individually for $2.13, but the brush set can be hard to find locally.

In any event, rather than buying a charger that - God willing - you probably won't use again, most auto parts stores will check the battery and charging system operation for free. I'd be inclined to replace the battery anyway because if it is not intermittent (replace battery anyway) it has been completely discharged a few times. Car batteries don't survive that very well.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Well the battery is probably bad at this point too, but I would definitely look at the charging system. Anyone with a volt meter can easily tell you if that's working, if it's not, usually the brush pack/regulator in the alternator is shot, the brushes do wear down over time.

Reply to
James Sweet

Whatkind of worst case/best case scenario do you all think I'm looking at, financially? Keep in mind that I'm not a do-it-yourselfer when it comes to cars, so we're talking taking it to the shop no matter what the problem is.

Thanks. I'm appreciating all your input.

Patricia

Reply to
Patricia Butler

Worst case:

  1. New Battery - - (you may have a pro-rated warranty refund to lower this cost)
  2. Regulator Assembly with brushes - around plus about 1/2 hour labor (my guess) to remove the old regulator and install the new one. This work does not need to be done at Volvo dealer service, but I would recommend that you choose a mechanic that has been around Volvo 240s. The alternator belt tensioner is very straightforward, if you've been around these before, but your local Bluto's Garage may be a little heavy-handed and may damage some parts, running up your costs to replace.
  3. Ask your mechanic to double check the cable to the starter: good solid terminal connections without any corrosion, and cable length appearance good with no frayed or worn insulation. Likewise have all the Ground cables double checked. If these are loose or corroded, it can gradually drain your battery and recharging system. New cables are under .

In the worst case, this is a relatively small cost problem, but you should add a bottle of excedrin to the parts list because chasing down electrical problems are a common pet peeve.

Reply to
Pat Quadlander

Thanks. And I did decide to spring for a portable charger today as well ($40). I figure not only will it get the car started to get me to the service station without having to place a call to my auto club, it's also probably just a good thing to have around, just in case. The charger I bought says it needs an initial 48 hour charge, though I see that the green "full" light is already on, even though I just plugged it in about 8 1/2 hours ago. Even so, I think I'll just ride my bike to the office tomorrow and deal with the car Tuesday. Weather's nice, and the office is only a mile away, so nothing really to lose by waiting a day.

Thanks again for everyone's great input. I'll let you know how things turn out.

Patricia

Reply to
Patricia Butler

Patricia,

I know you're not a mechanic, but you may feel a little more comfortable about driving if you can deal with emergency situations. First off, you need a set of jumper cables. The longer the better. They'll let you get a jump start from a friendly passerby when you need one, or turn you into a ministering angel when you see someone else with a flat battery. You can also do nifty diagnostics with them.

Batteries store electric charge supplied by the alternator. The electrons get pushed out one end of the alternator, travel through a wire, do some chemistry inside the battery, and go back into the alternator through another wire to repeat their cycle. Often the car's metal bits are used as part of the circuit. A flat battery indicates a fault that could be anywhere in that system -- battery, alternator, wires, or the connections between them.

You can check most of your circuit with your jumper cable. Not an ideal way of doing it, but better than nothing. Start the car and leave it idling. If all is well, it should be charging the battery. Turn your headlights on low beam. Even at idling, the alternator should be able to keep up with the demand. If the headlights start to dim, you know there's a problem somewhere. Let's start with the fat cable that connects between alternator and positive battery terminal. Hold one of the jumper clamps onto the top of the battery post (it's only 12-14 volts and won't bite you) at the same time holding the other end away from the car. (If you touch the cable to any metallic part of the car while it's connected to the battery, you'll get quite spectacular sparks and may even damage your battery.) We're using only one lead for this test, either the red or the black. At the back of the alternator there's a short threaded rod and a nut that attaches the cable that goes to the positive battery terminal. There should be a plastic protector over this which you can push off with a screwdriver or nail file. Now make good contact between the jumper clamp and the alternator connector, at the same time pushing the other clamp firmly onto the positive battery post. Watch your headlights. If they brighten, you've identified a problem area.

Do the same thing between the negative battery post and any solid piece of metal that bolts to the engine. Again, brightening lights indicate that you've identified a problem area.

If the battery wires are the problem, start by turning off the engine. Try to twist the connectors off the battery posts with your fingers. You shouldn't be able to. If you can, clean the post with a metal brush, metallic pot scrubber or sandpaper, and clean the inside of the connector in whatever way you can. A small sharp knife works well. Slacken off the nut that tightens the connector and push the connector hard onto the post. Then tighten the nut. (You do have a set of wrenches, don't you?) Don't hammer the battery post; the inside of a lead-acid battery is somewhat fragile, and gets more so with age.

Tighten the connections at the back of the alternator and at the end of the wire or woven strap that goes between the battery negative post and the engine or chassis. Also make sure that the wires are held firmly in the battery terminal connectors and haven't corroded away under the insulation near the connector (you'll see it quite clearly if they have).

Purists put silicone jelly inside battery and alternator connections. It tends to prevent corrosion. However, right now, we're more interested in getting you going.

Start the engine and see what success you've had so far. If all's well, you should be good for many more miles. If not, and you've eliminated the connections and cables as culprits, we need to check the alternator. Three questions:

  1. Does the battery light on your instrument cluster light up when you turn on the ignition? This light is critical; the current flowing through it creates a small electromagnetic field inside the alternator which enables it to start producing current -- kind of a bootstrap operation. No light, no current. And if there's no light, you'll need to get it fixed.

  1. Before the problems started, did you notice an increase in static in your radio, perhaps accompanied by crackle when you went over a bump? That's the sound the alternator brushes make when they're worn to the point where they're barely making contact, and a sure sign that replacement is just around the corner. If someone you know is handy with a soldering iron -- and has done this kind of job before -- s/he can replace the brushes without replacing the regulator board on which they're mounted. That'll save you or thereabouts. The regulator itself is pretty hefty and rarely gives trouble.

  2. With the engine running and the hood up, can you hear the alternator from more than a few feet away? (Think, grinding howl.) If so, that probably means new bearings or, more practically, a rebuilt alternator for around 0.

If you can lay your hand on a multimeter (dirt cheap and perfectly serviceable from places like Harbor Freight) you should check the output voltage from the alternator across the battery terminals. 14V is the target but it needn't be spot-on. A multimeter also lets you check for voltage drop across connections -- a much better method than using jumper cables but beyond the scope of these get-you-home diagnostics.

Finally, before blaming your battery, do a quick check for abnormal current drain -- shorted wires, courtesy lights left in the On position, that sort of thing. A fairly reliable check is simply to switch everything off, disconnect the negative battery lead and check for voltage/current between it and the battery. A multimeter is the ideal tool, but you can also use a small flashlight bulb. The only flow should be through a radio alarm circuit or some such other device that is constantly on.

Good luck!

Pete (fP)

Reply to
Peter Adler

Thanks for putting so much effort into such a detailed response, Pete. I do appreciate it. Unfortunately, after the first couple of sentences, everything I read went in through my eyes and, in my brain, turned into that noise you hear on Peanuts cartoons when the adults are speaking -- mwa mwa, mwa mwa mwa mwa... etc. You may just as well try to teach someone's grandmother how to set the timer on her VCR as try to get me to be comfortable fiddling around under the hood of my car. But, again, I do appreciate the tips. If nothing else it will help me sound a bit less stupid when conversing with the mechanic over possible problems and solutions.

Patricia (The girl with the sore bum from suddenly being force to ride a bike after several years of sitting comfortably in my cushy Volvo seat!)

Reply to
Patricia Butler

Did anyone suggest cleaning the terminals? Corruption builds up between the post and clamp that prevents charging (and discharging) the battery. Car will jump start because the jumpers are on the clamps. Soon as you remove them, car tries to run on the battery and gets nothing...

I didn't see anyone suggest checking the electrolyte level in the battery..? Even 'Maintenance free' batteries have the water evaporate out sometimes. If you pry the (look like they're not supposed to come off, but they do) caps off and peek down in with a flashlight, see if the water is above the plates. *do not use a bic lighter or open flame* There's explosive gases coming out of the battery. Distilled water is best to top it off but tap water will work in a pinch and get you going until you replace the battery.

Reply to
clay

I knew I was in trouble when I got a watch that was smarter than I was!

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Well, I found out that when the portable charger I bought over the weekend says it needs 48 hours for the initial charge, it means 48 hours. I tried to use it this morning -- 8 hours shy of the 48 hour mark -- and nothing. I ended up calling the auto club to have them start the car for me. Charger's going back Home Depot tonight!

So the battery was replaced for $145 ($125 batter/$20 labor). I hope that sounds about right (keeping in mind that I'm not the do-it- yourself kind of girl when it comes to automobiles).

To put things in perspective, I remind myself that with the new brakes/ calipers, new gasket in the cat converter, and new battery, the total is still about $300 less than what my usual mechanic quoted me for just changing the converter (which, as it turned out, didn't really need to be done). So unless the entire thing blows up as I drive it home tonight, I'd say I'm still pretty far ahead of the game -- and with a car now totally roadworthy (considering the four new tires I had put on in April) for a few weekend trips out of state.

Thanks for all your help!

Patricia

Reply to
Patricia Butler

Wow, $145 for putting in a battery seems a little steep. Where are you and who did you use?

Allen

Reply to
Allen

Why did I know that someone was going to say that to me?

I'm in Evanston, IL. I used Warren's Shell on Chicago Avenue. They installed an Interstate battery -- MTP-91 - Mega-Tron Plus - 85 Months

- 700 CCA.

Patricia

Reply to
Patricia Butler

Thats a great battery, Interstate is top of the line if you ask me. They are expensive. You can feel better, they did not take advantage of you too much, I would suspect that is a standard price in a service station. I sure hope they checked your charging system as part of the install otherwise the battery can be dead in a very short time if their is a problem with the system. FYI, in the future you can go to most of the auto parts stores, autozone etc and they will install the battery for free for you in most of them, same with most of the smaller parts, wiper blades etc.

Reply to
Brian V

They didn't do you any favors. Interstates website show this for "list" $123.95, "suggested retail" $103.95. Most places will charge less than suggested retail and will install the battery for free if you buy it from them. Are you a regular customer of theirs?

Allen

Reply to
Allen

They've done a couple of things for me, including my new tires recently, but they're not my regular mechnics, no. Then again, my regular mechanics were going to charge me $900 to fix a noisy exhaust. What Warren's has in their favor is that they're within easy walking distance of my office. That may sound stupid, but it has to be a consideration when I need to hoof it back and forth when I drop off my car.

Reply to
Patricia Butler

Thanks. I don't know if they did check the charging system, but rather doubt it. Perhaps I can now take it to my regular mechanic and ask them to do a check. Is the charging system something that can be checked for problems when there isn't a problem actually manifesting itself at the moment (i.e., dead battery)? Or will I actually have to wait until there's a problem before anyone will be able to spot the cause?

Fingers crossed the battery was the beginning and ending of the problem. I have a feeling the battery that was replaced was actually the car's original battery. 14 years of service ain't bad!

Reply to
Patricia Butler

Why did I know that someone was going to say that to me?

I'm in Evanston, IL. I used Warren's Shell on Chicago Avenue. They installed an Interstate battery -- MTP-91 - Mega-Tron Plus - 85 Months

- 700 CCA.

Patricia

Reply to
Patricia Butler

Convenience has a value! You did OK. I am not a big Shell fan; it seems here in Texas they are always first to raise their fuel prices, go up the largest amount, and are the last to lower them.

Just my opinion.

Allen

Reply to
Allen

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