A Few Questions and Observations

With respect, did you miss your Wheaties today? You write with forked logic. One would think that one's typically second-largest lifetime investment (in the aggregate the largest most likely) be cared for as such. If oil changes and such are 'optional' until failure mode, then the question of confiscatory taxes is moot due to the greater cost of confiscatory stupidity.

Between my wife and I, we own ~$180,000 (replacement cost) of vehicular hardware (4 vehicles). Not that we paid even half of that for them. They range in age from 2 to 21, and mileage from 265,000 to

32,000. As it happens the two oldest (1987 & 1999) are VWs. You bet we take good care of them to avoid $3000/vehicle annual failure-to- maintain costs. Back in the day when we were putting the kids through college (without loans) we had fewer, older and higher-mileage cars. Which received scrupulous maintenance because we simply could not afford bumps. In 25 years, my wife and I have never been left at the side of the road by any maintenance failure. It is nearly infinitely cheaper to maintain a car than to constantly replace it, and that applies even more-so to those for whom a car is a barely affordable necessity. VWs (as with most Euro-Cars) respond especially badly to poor maintenance. So, in self-defense the issue is even more important than typically.

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

Indeed, poor maintenance of cars as of everything else equals to poor economy...that said, why would usenet users read or participate in those different threads if it wasn't for learning something...?

al.

Just try to find a driver who has never been screwed or ripped off by a service shop, especially at a dealership. Virtually impossible! People do not like having their cars serviced because it is a nightmare. This is probably because they are often cheated out of big money.

I am technically inclined, and I have learned to do some basic service on my own car. Unfortunately there are many things I still can not do, so I need to take the car some place. Most drivers know even less about their vehicles, and not everyone is mechanically inclined.

You can NOT expect most people to service their own cars. We do expect they will take them to a garage for service, and that's reasonable. However you may be underestimating how difficult it is to find a good mechanic, so you should not be surprised that people try to avoid servicing and the pain.

Jem:

That has not been our experience. Yes, I have heard the run of horror- stories and I acknowledge that they happen, even that they happen quite often. As it is for now, we take our under-warranty vehicles to the Dealer for the major services simply because there is no argument later. As compared to our local (walking-distance) garage (Hillside Auto in Jenkintown) they are perhaps 20% more expensive, but no more than that. We have several-of-each-brand dealers approximately the same distance from us, so there is at least some level of competition between them. This may help. And several dozen repair shops, similar.

Getting a car serviced is an inconvenience... but compare it to being stranded. Then add snow and cold. Or heat.

Put another way, if one walks, talks, swims and quacks like a victim....

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

My goodness!!

You do need your Wheaties!

For the record, I (and my wife) have lived (years) and worked in countries where US$400 month purchases a skilled electrician, and $200 month purchases a full-time house-boy *and* a full-time cook. All of whom were glad for the money if it was reliable.

Those sorts of individuals when they own motorized vehicles are near- fanatical about their care and feeding. You are letting your politics cloud the reality-as-practiced.

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

JMHO along with my observations.

OK who remembers a bit of "Stone-Age" history. The Chevy Vega. A car you could drive for 2 years and then throw away (Disposable Cars). That is basically the philosophy that the American car industry wishes their consumers to have. They want people to purchase a new vehicle every few years but during the time of ownership have the consumers service the vehicles at the dealership. Of course the dealership attracts new sales with new "prettier" models and/or they change the names. I know a few people that drive their vehicles beyond death! I mean they drive it until so many systems need repair/replacement that the vehicle is not worth $10 since I consider it a total meltdown. AND they knew that they could repair it before it got that bad!!!

Then there is that phrase "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Another Osteridge philosophy........UHHH I don't see a problem! There are a lot of people like that out there!!! lol

I just had someone call me up to discuss their '03 Jetta needing brake fluid. Dealer just did a brake job for their regular fee and then after the customer paid they were informed that the brake fluid NEEDED flushing very very soon for another $180 or so. The owner finally called me and I explained why the job was needed and that it would not cause total brake failure if she had to wait 2-3 months before having this service. She was semi-terrified before she called me and felt safer after we concluded our conversation. Two fold moral. 1. Dealer wants to sell service and sometimes uses scare tactics. Just explain why the service is needed. 2. OWNERS NEED to educate themselves more and find someone that they can trust for ADVICE. I have had some apprehensive customers also that have been burnt by others and then they come to me. Now mind you that they have forked over possibly hundreds or thousands to others but I need to tell them exactly what is wrong along with a detailed written estimate and maybe my shoe size.

Bottom Line........I don't think most owners really read their owner's manuals UNTIL there is a problem. Some don't believe in preventative maintenance, and some ignore the signs of imminent total failure. Now there are a few that actually like to bring in the vehicles for inspections with a blank check and it feels good when they come in with apprehension and then start leaving me the blank check. TRUST!

Here is a phrase I copied from another group and that I like.

'Remember proactive maintenance costs cents, reactive maintenance cost dollars.'

Now what gets my gander is a person who calls me up several times asking me how much $ to change a lightbulb in the front turn signal of a '95 Jetta, I tell them like $10 or so and then they say that is too much and then ask me for instructions on how to do that job. huh? Buy a Repair Manual. I will sell him one for $10 and it should pay for itself the first time it is used. I could have changed the bulb in the time it took to tell him how much it cost! ;-)

Remember that these are JMHOs. ;-)

snip

Oh he gets too many "freebies", free advice and good deals inbetween good $$ repairs. His '94-95 Jetta 2.0 auto with 240K miles runs so well after repairs that his wifes decides to keep it instead of buying a new car. He could just buy a repair manual for the easy repairs, but he doesn't. Now even if they hit the Lottery I think they will continue to be very frugal! lol

Well to answer your own question from your original post, do you consider you and your wife typical? Just based on your neighbors are you typical? Why would you think that your 'rules' for taking care of your cars would be observed by most people?

Do you and your wife eat a low fat diet and exercise for half an hour at least 3 times a week? Do you think this is typical behavior? DO you keep your weight to within a few pounds of what you weighed when you were 18?

Reasonable question what does the last paragraph have to do with your 'rant'. It points out that most people do NOT do all the things known to take care of themselves nor their cars. People are people.

fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.

Couple of things:

What my wife and I do with ourselves has no immediate effect on our block, neighborhood and the rest of the world. What we do with our vehicles by commission and omission does.

As your little tag-line suggests (fundamentalism), whatever else goes on, the social contract requires that our activities do not endanger others. Vehicle maintenance comes under that general umbrella. It is fair to hope that others feel the same way. It is silly to expect or depend on it. I take the position of the Greyhound Bus Driver who retired without an accident after 40 years of driving. When asked his secret he replied: Drive like the other guy's crazy!

This is not a goody-twoshoes approach, but very simple common-sense. What we do not do we cannot demand or even expect of others. Nor can we complain or blame from any consequences. State Inspection and Emissions programs are a governmental approach to this in an attempt to control the most basic of issues. But they are inevitably limited, thwarted or abused as are most controls imposed by fiat. As individuals, we choose either to be active or passive when it comes to our general environment. Our family chooses to be active. That is not the universal choice and we certainly understand that. The codicil, of course, is that unless one is active one has no right to complain.

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

Some people are technophobes and have a hard time with basic computing. I'm a bit like that with mechanics. Beyond the most basic stuff it takes a while to sink in. So sadly I can't offer much help to others on here, but I have had some very constructive advice and it's a great group in that regard (can you imagine getting as much help in RAO?). Usually I have to rely on mechanics, but there are jobs I can do myself with a bit of help, and it's a good thing to be armed with some knowledge so I don't get exploited.* Yes I get my car serviced at the right intervals, but sometimes they tick the boxes and don't do the work. Without some guidance I get an idea what faults need to be dealt with urgently, or when the car is OK to drive, but being a novice I sometimes make mistakes.

*My previous mechanic slashed an air hose, by accident or design, and was talking about taking the head off the engine "because there's not a lot to tune in a VW."

-- S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Nothing wrong with being mechanically inept, at all. Although it is my opinion that such individuals should purchase and drive Hondas or Toyotas :-).

I hope you found another mechanic, but I do understand that that is not always possible. I guess I am railing at deliberate neglect followed by surprise that such neglect should have consequences. And I guess I (perhaps) more attentive than some as we drive four Euro-Cars, all of which respond particularly badly to negligence but will last nearly forever with the proper care and feeding.

RAO? Advice? Sure... Just don't follow it.

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

But the doors are so flimsy... embarrassing.

It's a shame so many cars meet their maker well before they should. Seen as disposable by many. Some "dead" cars are now containered to Africa, and wouldn't you know it they are brought back to life. They don't have the tools or parts, but necessity breeds creative solutions and that's cool.

In this town I'm surrounded by Astons, TVRs, Maseratis and the ilk, so probably looked down on for having a 10 year old car and keeping it running, but there's life in her yet.. and those guys probably know less than me which is really saying something. :-)

-- S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

Well yes and no, you impact on insurance rates, hospital beds that have to be provided and a number of other expenses to the common if you are not healthy life style people. Mind I'm not trying to tell you how to live, but pointing out that no man is an island.

Not really, take war between nations, the leaders decide to go to war, the young and in the US poor are put in danger by those decissions. And that is indeed a part of the social contract, we agree to invest our sonds and daughters in the silliness of old men/women who cannot get along. We even przise the warrior and put up statues etc to him for his heroism. And the heroism is manifested by his willingness to endnager and injure and kill other people. All a part of the social contract.

It might be fair to hope others feel as you do, but it is not reasonable. I'm guessing with that fleet you mention you and your wife are shall we say comfortable materially. Not everyone is, one thing they often ask on job applications, 'do you have a car' for that minimum wage type job, that could mean some 'deffered' maintainace . Others just don't care about their car in that fashion. I've a good friend who is a car nut, he is constantly at the car shows buying some new 'collector' car. Me, a car is to get me from here to there in reasonable comfort and safety. Don't really care if it is dirty on the outside etc. That's me, you seem to feel different, that's you. Takes all kijnds to make a world.

Ah Greyhound, by not using it for trips and instead using your well maintained fleet you add to fuel consumption, air polution etc. So you are having a negative impact even while keeping your fleet in top condition. So again the question regarding life style is indeed relevent to the discussion. Not preaching, pointing out, people are people, none of us is perfect and we are all hypocrites to one degree or another.

Nonsense, to complain is human. One also does not need to be a bird to be able to recognise a rotten egg. Do as I say not as I do, every parent at some point or another has committed that line. Again it is part of what makes us people. For better or worse we all have our failings that do indeed negatively impact on those around us. Take the drunk or drug addict...

fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.

Do you not understand the term "Immediate"? Re-read, please. As to the rest of it, we pay our dues, which as it happens, includes a healthy subsidy towards those who go to exactly the same hospitals and ERs as we do without any insurance whatsoever.

Mpffff... Perhaps we do, perhaps we do not. You seem to embrace a passivity that I have not seen much in the American general population for more than 35 years now, something I associate with the 50s and early 60s, not since. What has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan for the last 4 years is about a week's worth of Vietnam, against an all- volunteer army taken from a much larger population. Not that I am supporting the war by any means, not hardly. My wife and I lived and worked less than 200 miles south of it for 2 years, and because of it, our 'plans' changed radically. No fun, stupid, based on lies, and so forth. But there is not a single American there that did not volunteer directly at some point. And if you attempt to say they had no clue.... whatinhell do you think the Military is? A country club with guns? My sympathies are with the *innocent* civilian population, some 500,000

+/- of which are now dead as a direct result.

Pull the trigger before reading further. Typical.

I drive ~30,000 miles per year on my job. Each time it snows, and while it is going on, I have a 250 mile loop to complete. I missed the I-78 debacle in Pennsylvania by less than 15 minutes, and only because I could drive over and along the median to get past the early snarls. So, yes, vehicle maintenance means at the very least my convenience, and perhaps my health and life. Also a well-charged cell-phone so I could call in some pretty nasty or desperate situations during that crawl... not to me, but to others.

My Goodness!! I once did this calculation. My wife and I go several times per year to a play in NYC. We drive 97 miles (one way) from our house to a garage we use in the theatre district. So, assume 200 miles. Tolls are $17.50, parking is $12. (Why do you think we use a certain garage?). The subway to our favorite restaurant is an additional $8. The restaurant will set us about $80 (with 2 drinks each). As we do it before the play, we are fine for the drive back some 4 hours later. Assume gas at $2.50/gallon, 27mpg is what we got last go. 8 x 2.50 = $20. Total comes to: $137.50.

Greyhound wants $82 dollars R/T. Amtrak wants $150 R/T (both for two people). Greyhound would take more time than driving, Amtrak needs an addtional $24 to take the commuter line from our house to the main station. Add that to the Greyhound number as well, given that their terminal is in Center City and would require a $35 parking fee. MORE than NYC. Which would you pick?

I see. We get to ignore participation, then complain about the results. Getting back to maintenance, we get to drive with no oil/ water/brakes and then blame VW/Volvo/Mercedes/Saab for the inevitable results. Makes absolutely perfect sense.

Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA

Yes, far too many owners neglect their vehicles in the area of safety and common sense, just as far too many people use their real e-mail addresses in newsgroup posts. In either case, it is not prudent.