airbags suck

**So it only increases safety 9% *but* how much does it reduce injury if someone is in an accident? That's more relevant.

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Here's the pertinent bits: "5. Are airbags effective? Do they save lives and reduce injuries? In frontal crashes, frontal airbags reduce driver deaths by about 14 percent; passenger airbags are reducing deaths by about 11 percent. Among belted occupants, deaths in frontal airbag-equipped cars are 12 percent lower among drivers and 9 percent lower among passengers compared with deaths in vehicles without frontal airbags. NHTSA estimates that the combination of an airbag plus lap/shoulder belt reduces the risk of serious head injury by 85 percent compared with a 60 percent reduction for belts alone."

"6. Do frontal airbags injure people? If so, how and who's at greatest risk? The energy required to inflate frontal airbags quickly and protect people in a crash can sometimes cause injury, as well. Fortunately, most of these injuries are minor scrapes and abrasions on people's hands, arms, and faces. Serious injuries and deaths are relatively rare; deaths attributable to airbag inflation in low speed crashes numbered about 220 according to NHTSA (as of April 2003), compared with the nearly 10,000 lives that have been saved by airbags. In addition, it's important to note that these problems aren't happening entirely at random, and occupants can easily reduce their risk. Most deaths caused by frontal airbags involve people who were unbelted or improperly belted. Unbelted people, especially passengers, are likely to move forward if there's hard braking or other violent maneuvers before a frontal crash. These people can end up on top of, or extremely close to, their airbags as they begin to inflate. Anyone on top of or very close to a frontal airbag as it begins to inflate faces the possibility of injury. The first step in preventing the injuries from inflating airbags is to wear one's seat belt and maintain a proper seating position. Other important precautions include:

Drivers: Drivers who sit very close to the steering wheel or lean forward in their seats face the likelihood of being struck by an airbag during a frontal collision. Short drivers and elderly ones can be especially vulnerable to inflation injuries from frontal airbags because they tend to sit close to the steering wheel. It is recommended that drivers sit with their chests at least 10 inches away from the center of their steering wheels.

Infants and children: More than 90 percent of the passenger airbag fatalities have been children and infants. They account for about sixty percent of all airbag related deaths. Rear-facing restraints should not be used in the front seat of a vehicle with a passenger side airbag because this seat puts an infant's head too close to the airbag. The forces of the inflating airbag against the back of a rear-facing restraint can cause serious, even fatal head injuries."

More stats below:

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kaboomie

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kaboom
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Could you explain that logic? I would chose it if it offered a two to one advantage. BTW the numbers I could find were based mostly on old technology bags.

Since the question today is about building more cars with new technology bags, not old technology, then the decision should be based on the new technology alone.

Again where did you find that $1,000 cost figure? I seem to recall it being much less than that today. So have you done a serious cost effectiveness study? If so what were the results?

Let's start with the fact that many drivers don't use seat belts. You are limiting your example and even then you are admitting there is a real advantage.

Reply to
Joseph Meehan

Sorce of these "facts" please?

I have no problem with that, but what does that have to do with air bags? I like apple pie, but I also like cherry. Liking apple pie does not deminish my desire for cherry pie. Even your web page does not suggest replacing air bags with traction control. It does not offer a cost comparison. Do you have any figures on that?

Yes they can and I would use them as long as they offer me more protection than risk. I would also want additional research to decrease that risk. Even seat belts, which you seem to accept, have been known to cost lives in unusual situations.

Reply to
Joseph Meehan

It appears to me that it is a lot more than "Knee jerk responses" The facts support them.

Reply to
Joseph Meehan

WHOA! That's not good! Half the reason I feel good about driving my wife around in my Beetle is the side impact and front impact safety. You must be very glad you were in the passenger side instead of your wife (I know I would be). Thanks for sharing this as I'm glad to hear the car held up so well to such a large vehicle. And you must be a tough guy to have hit all those things and be ok. Nice work! I hope my wife's side bags go off if she gets hit in the new Jetta....

TOE

Reply to
TOE

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:37:19 GMT, Brandon Sommerville >

If it is safer than ever, is that not at least in part a result of the mandated safety devices now found in cars? I don't have any idea what you mean by "compared to what it could be". You mean we could kill

100,000 on the road therefore 40,000 is doing well? So we should ignore 100 deaths a day? I can't believe you'd advocate for that.

A more meaningful comparison is to other forms of transportation. My guess is that only private aircraft have a higher fatality rate than cars.

Reply to
TL

And they may do better per mile.

Reply to
Joseph Meehan

Well, its six of one, half dozen of another. Im happy as hell that car took a hammering like that and im alive. Though I wish the airbags had gone off and saved me a few stitches :)

Yeah, I am happy it was me that took the impact and not her. The headache I had for the week after, I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy. And yeah, im a big tough guy, so im sure my pure toughness kept me alive! (yeah right! let my wife tell the story and I whined like a baby for a week afterwards lol)

Reply to
Sinjin Smithe

Well, its six of one, half dozen of another. Im happy as hell that car took a hammering like that and im alive. Though I wish the airbags had gone off and saved me a few stitches :)

Yeah, I am happy it was me that took the impact and not her. The headache I had for the week after, I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. And yeah, im a big tough guy, so im sure my pure toughness kept me alive! (yeah right! let my wife tell the story and I whined like a baby for a week afterwards lol)

But in the end, I put her into another Beetle without thinking twice about it. Owning a Beetle was a dream for her and the car that was totalled was her 2nd since the release of the New Beetle. When we saw the car at the boneyard, she fell apart.. Her "baby" was gone.. So, a trip to a local dealer and she was in her new baby.. The third Beetle for her, and I think its the car that has made her the happiest..

MiVE

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Michigans biggest VW Enthusiast club

Reply to
Cap crnch

I knew a guy at work a few years back who was part of a fairly low speed 5ish car plus one bus pile-up on the freeway. He was actually the guy that caused it - first person to rear-end the car in front of him. He was shoulder checking while changing lanes and didn't see the car in the lane he was changing into hitting his brakes until it was too late. His was the only car in which an airbag deployed. He thinks he put his hand up when he saw he was about to hit the car in front of him, and when the airbag went off, it wrapped his forearm around his forehead, both bones broken in three of four places. He was the only person injured - nobody else had so much as a stiff neck the next day. He was off work for about 18 months and had to see a physiotherapist for about two years after he was back at work. The car would have been about a 93ish Chevy, can't remember what model, so could have been the old style, more dangerous bags.

All that said, things like that are the flukes. Enough others would have been killed without them. I feel like I'm driving with a loaded gun to my head when I think about the force in my steering wheel ready to launch itself at me, but all in all I'd never turn it off. All a matter of managing risks. Playing in traffic might save you if your house collapses, but that doesn't make it safer than watching TV.

- Frank

Reply to
Frank & Mary Schindler

ROFLMAO.

"Yeah, my new Jetta is a TDI and is ABS and BMS equipped." Most people I know would be too embarrassed to ask what the BMS stands for lest they look like they don't know their cars...

- Frank

Reply to
Frank & Mary Schindler

Certainly. That doesn't mean that *all* mandated safety devices are good things.

The death rate is the lowest that it's ever been. Transportation involves risks. There is no way you will ever zero out those fatalities unless (possibly) you automate the entire system. Is it worth the cost financially?

But how efficient are those other forms of transportation at getting you from point A to point B if the distance isn't hundreds of miles?

Reply to
Brandon Sommerville

US airbags must deploy in order to save an unbelted driver in a

30mph crash. "Smart" airbags may be able to detect that the driver is belted and not open unless the crash is sufficiently hard where the airbag would help a belted driver, but plenty of cars on the road have the "dumb" airbags that don't make that distinction.
Reply to
Timothy J. Lee

Not even the side airbags opened?

Reply to
Timothy J. Lee

I wonder what it would be for airbags that only had to do supplemental duty, rather than protect unbelted occupants in 30mph frontal crashes. Airbags that only had to do supplemental duty for belted occupants can be smaller and not deploy in lower speed crashes.

Reply to
Timothy J. Lee

Strange -- side curtain airbags are standard equipment in most new VWs in the US, and when they were made standard in 2001, the price increase was US$150, not a lot compared to other options or in context of the car's price. What is the option price in Canada?

Adding seat belts or upgrading lap belts to lap + shoulder belts had a huge safety benefit compared to the cost. Front air bags might not have as good a safety benefit compared to the cost, at least for people who always use the seat belts.

Reply to
Timothy J. Lee

Those airbags are what are available in Europe, IIRC.

Reply to
Brandon Sommerville

The newest technology bags aren't 100% yet, nor will they be for years.

And the cost of that technology is borne by whom?

That's about what airbags were as an option when they were optional. Since all sorts of new technology has gone into developing them, I don't see it coming down significantly.

I haven't, but the guy I know who did said they came out to about $5B per life saved, which is well over the imposed maximum of the NHTSA of $2B per life.

What you're missing here is that those drivers are *choosing* to not use the most effective safety device in their car. Saving these people by endangering the lives of some who do use those safety devices is just plain irresponsible.

Reply to
Brandon Sommerville

Yeah, the hard science that said that airbags would kill small adults and children.

And we have to look at the benefits vs the costs. How many people do you think vaccines have saved? I suspect it's a little more than a couple hundred a year.

I agree, so get rid of airbags, use seatbelts and the cost of the car will drop by at least $1,000.

That the biggest arguments in favour of the airbag legislation have been proven to be false.

They shouldn't have taken *any*, is the point. People were being killed due to minor fender benders thanks to safety devices in their car. *You* may like the idea of a bomb in front of you, but some of us aren't all that comfortable with it.

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Reply to
Brandon Sommerville

The fact that they kill people in minor fender benders?

Reply to
Brandon Sommerville

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