For those thinking of getting a TDI

Are we having a bad day today?

It is rather difficult to support or refute that statement. Many factors must be considered. I can only suggest that in the EU where clean diesel fuel has been available for years (while in the US the oil companies, truckers and trucking companies did everything they could to keep it away) diesels are far more popular and I really don't think all those people are buying them because they want to pay more. BTW VW is far from the only player in the EU.

Oh no, it is easier than that. Just add the numbers.

In Europe, fuel prices are 2-3x higher. Obviously not in America.

Compare a Jetta GLS Tdi vs a Corolla LE. 5-6000$ difference with all interests & taxes. EVEN at 40000 miles a year, this is only 6-700$ more in fuel per year for the Corolla. The Tdi is high maintenance with an expensive timing belt change, not the Toyota. My example is with the Corolla, but it could be the Civic or the Mazda3.

Those many factors have nothing to do with Europe. In the US there are many factors to consider. before you can accept or deny your statement.

Of course the situation in Europe is different in the US and it is not just the cost of fuel, the quality of fuel or even the number of choices of cars available. I am sorry that the way I wrote my earlier reply it may have seemed to oversimplify the issue. However the difference in the quality of fuel and as a result the unavailability of many of the better models in the US does make a big difference. I did not note, and perhaps I should have, that fuel cost is higher in the EU and that is also a factor, as are other factors.

I really don't agree with you about the high cost of maintenance. You have picked out a few items. If you want to say maintenance is higher, you need to add all the typical scheduled and non-scheduled maintenance over the life of the car (another term that may well be different for different people). Under those conditions I don't believe you will find a great difference.

I do agree that the Toyota you refer to is a very good low lifetime cost car and may well cost less to own and drive over its lifetime. I don't agree that the choice between the two is clear however nor do I agree that the total value difference is so great that one is much better than the other.

You're not even getting the same car in the Corolla. The LE does not come standard with ABS (or even rear disks, FTM), side air bags, cruise control, alloy wheels, or a sunroof. And forget about the (non-)option of buying a Corolla Wagon -- they don't exist (at least in the U.S.). Once you outfit an LE at the same trim level as a VW GLS TDI, the price difference is only about US$1700 (MSRP). What does _that_ do to your calculations?

As for the maintenance end, the timing belt on the TDI goes 60,000 miles between changes -- how many of them does an owner replace in the time they own the car? Meanwhile, you're feeding the Corolla spark plugs that you're not putting into the TDI -- there's another expense you didn't count.

And it always strikes me as odd that nobody questions the value of spending extra money to buy the 1.8T engine on a VW and spend extra on premium fuel (which it uses more of). "It's an upgrade," people say. Well, you can think of the TDI engine that way, too. It's as fast off the line as the VR6 (around town), quieter than the 2.0 at highway speeds, and gets much better mileage than either on fuel that generally costs the same as or less than regular unleaded. Why doesn't anyone apply the dollars-and-cents rule to VW's other engines?

sd

In the EU, isn't diesel fuel more lightly taxed (per liter) than gasoline?

You're not comparing TDI vs gas, you're comparing Corolla vs Jetta. If you compared a Jetta GLS 1.8T or 2.0 to the Corolla LE you get the same price spread. The VW is a fair bit more expensive. It's *NOT* the engine that matters, it's the brand of vehicle. VW's gas engines require basically the same maintenance as the TDI, and also need the "expensive" timing belt change.

Let's say somebody compares the Jetta to the Corolla and decides to go with the VW. The question then is whether the TDI is a better choice than the 1.8T, 2.0, or VR6. I think it is. Nothing you've *EVER* said on this topic refutes that.

Yeah only in Europe the tax on diesel is a lot less than the tax on gas. So the diesel costs a lot less at the pump.

Here is a link to the prices:

In US the diesel costs the same as the 87, so the only isentive is the better gas mileage, but that would only pay off for a very high mileage cars.

Actually, at the moment, where I live (Long Island, New York USA), diesel is a good 20-30 cents cheaper than 87 unleaded gasoline.

-- Mike Smith

Although I am one of the unhappy one's owning a diesel in North America, I really can't agree that 95% of diesel owners are unhappy.

*Most* people don't buy a diesel because of the overall money they save but because of the mileage benefits; however, I am one of those that assumed that owning a diesel will benefit me in many ways such as fuel savings and maintenance. The way I see it is that the cost savings in owning a TDI is negated by the high cost of diesel in my province, the adding the fuel additives, synthetic oil, expensive parts, and quirks such as the clogging of the intake which happens to ALL diesels eventually, but with many TDI's it is happening prematurely.

For me, the opportunity costs and the health issues of owning a diesel is simply not worth it. The fact is I will not own another VW in my lifetime unless VW of Canada/USA changes it's Mission, Values, and attitude.

Jim B.

I'm sorry you've had a problem car. My 2001 Golf TDI just gets better. No clogging, at least from looking at the intercooler, which doesn't drip a drop of oil. These engines do like to be driven, so city and short distance driving may not make TDIs a good choice.

It's not just any synthetic oil, it's special synthetic formulated for VW diesel confirming to certain specifications. On average, I will spend about $40 for the oil itself. This compares to say, $10 for the same period of time using dino-oil.

I don't know how old your VW's are but the older VW's apparently from what I have heard, were built better and are more durable. One doesn't really know how anal VW Headoffice is until one had to deal with them.

Oh, I also forgot to add in my other post that because of VW's quality issues, I won't be owning them in the future. Most (but not all) of the problem parts/defects are those not actually made by VW. The MAF is just one of them. I have heard that VW has been retroactively refunding money to people who have paid for the MAF sensor. So, that's a start. But I have other issues about them that I won't get into as it will only frustrate me. All I can say is "enough is enough". If my car isn't reliable and dependable while under warranty, how can I assume it will be reliable after the warranty runs out? I just don't have the time and patience to visit the dealer with defective parts every three months.

: >For me, the opportunity costs and the health issues of owning a diesel : >is simply not worth it. The fact is I will not own another VW in my : >lifetime unless VW of Canada/USA changes it's Mission, Values, and : >attitude. : >

: >

: : : Jim B.

Is that why VW advertises "Drivers Wanted"! lol Yes I agree that VWs need to be or should be DRIVEN! I have seen babied (not driven hard) have more problems as they get older than some that are driven hard. The ones driven hard are sometimes fantastic runners as they get older. I know some older A2 Jettas with over 220,000 original miles running fantasically! One is even driven by a little old lady! 8^)

Driving them hard, IMO, does not mean abusing them though!!!!

I have to find me a TDI inexpensively so I can play with it. later, dave Reminder........ Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you have their shoes. Frieda Norris

Please stop reporting false facts. A Corolla S 2005 with the top package is

17090$ with the 6CD-in-dash. A Jetta GLS Tdi with 6CD-in-dash is 21554$. Difference of 4464$. Add to this taxes and financing and the difference is 6000$+ easily, ** like I said **.

Minor equipments variations are not that important when saving money is supposed to be the priority.

This is getting petty. 10$ every 100000 miles... Come on.

If saving money is the issue, why are you comparing top packages. The cheapest cars with the same passanager capacity should be the subjects.

Actually I mentionned the GLS because the Jetta GL Tdi is no longer avaialble in the Canada.

The retroactive payment for MAF repairs is true, it took 4 months but we got a cheque from VW Canada on work that was done over a year ago, cheque came last month.