German Hybrid Vehicles ??

Why bother when the TDis can get 50mpg or better?

If you want economy, the question is when are we going to get the smaller VW cars in the US, like the Polo?

For a couple of reasons:

1. Full hybrids such as the Toyota Prius can be modified so that they can be run during local shopping trips in all-electric mode, recharged overnight, and/or used like a regular hybrid for longer trips. This concept is called PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), and some privately owned Prius models have already been converted and are getting as much as 180 MPG combined highway/city mileage. IMO the PHEV concept will be showing up in automobile showrooms eventually.

1. Because the fuel efficient hybrids (some are not) do less harm to the environment.

Regards.

Because half the population of the US can't buy one?

-- Mike Smith

Don't think we will ever seen them because VW engineers and electrics don't mix well... NEVER have NEVER will!(lol)

couldn't resist

In your dreams! Most TDis only get 40s mpg and the top is around 50mpg, not 50mpg min or better. You can get japanese gas engine cars that do

40s+ mpg now.

Hybrids are great metro vehicles. The fuel mileage isn't as good on the highway since it uses the gas engine once you are above a certain mph.

Does the electricity from the wall plug is free in the USA? And it is not necessary pollution free.

Not necessary. You should also count the pollution, which takes place when you produce the car and scrap it afterwards. And the hybrids carry around huge batteries, which have limited life and are highly toxic.

Oh, there are german cars, which do ~80mpg (~3l/100km) :) VW Lupo 3L for example. TDI of course.

And Lupo 3L is good at highways, there you can get even better mileage :)

In any case, the german manufacturers are somewhat cautios about those autos, perhaps due to the (quite long) experience they already have with "fuel efficient" autos.

There was a Mk3 (or even Mk2) Golf ECO, which had an engine stop/start automatic (when waiting at intersections for example). You stop and hold brakes - engine stops. You release it - starts itself again. Somehow nobody wanted it, even if it really did save fuel. Then we got the Lupo 3L, which consumes only ~3L diesel. Again - somehow nobody wants it.

Ok, they are more expensive to produce, and thus are sold for couple of thousands more. And if you want to save, it is really hard to give more money upfront just to save more later.

The same story is with the Prius. I don't see many of them here in Europe. Maybe one in two or three months. And I live in the city, with lot's and lot's of cars. And 1 liter of petrol costs 1.36euro over here (oil companies say, that due to a fuel shortage in the usa), and will be go up to the ~1.80euro by the end of the year.

What size are the Japanese cars? About the size of a Lupo? Golf? Lupo gets way better than 50, and my sisters' Golf over 50 on the highway. I am not talking about Passats with automatic transmissions. They are not in the same category.

Electricity costs energy to produce, unless you're doing solar or wind (or tidal, or geothermal, etc). Whats it cost to 'fill up' an EV? I'd much rather have a TDi Lupo than a Prius, I imagine they're about the same size. If a Lupo is about the size of a MK1 Rabbit, it'd be perfect. I don't know how the Prius handles, but I've heard the Insight handles like crap because of the inboard rear wheels.

If I lived in a 'metro' area, I'd be using public transportation and my bicycle. I don't, and I still ride my bike to town as often as possible. If you really care, fund public transportation and encourage them to use more fuel efficient/environmentally efficient substitutes.

Actually, a totally valid point. That said, check todays headlines...in particular the one about Porsche buying a 20% stake in VW. Among other things, they mentioned joint development of hybrids. Sad in a way. I prefer to see the troubled VW focus its attention on further perfecting its already excellent diesel technology and not get waysided by the hybrid fad.

Was looking at an Autoweek at a friends house this weekend. It had a little blurb on the break even points for 3 hybrids and a diesal Beetle. With their assumptions, the Beetle would be pay for the premium in acquisition cost in a little less than 3 years. All of the hybrids (Civic, Prius, and one other which I forgot) took at least 7 years to reach the break even point. They didn't include the US federal tax credit, which expires this year, nor the huge cost of replacing the batteries at the 8-10 year point. Those two items likely balance out. They also used a low dollar cost for fuel. But the point remains, in real world situations, a diesel makes more sense, for more people, than a hybrid.

As an engineer, I'm all for new technology, but lets make sure its good, not just sexy.

David Glos

While it is true that electricity costs energy to produce, the cost of using today's modern batteries is much less than the cost of fossil fuel, including diesel, and a whole lot more environmentally friendly. Check it out. I suggest the US Department of Energy webpage at

as a good first look, followed by The California Cars Initiative's webpage In addition, you might also take a look at an article from MixedPower.com at

I ride my bike daily, but some of us find it necessary to travel further than a few miles every day, and in areas where public transportation is not available. This is hardly a rare situation in the USA. However, this strays from the debate. As I stated previously, fuel efficient hybrids do significantly less harm to the environment than vehicles that use nothing but fossil fuels.

The "Lupo" is not sold in the USA, where I live. Even if it were, I wouldn't buy it because from the reports I have read, it is an uncomfortable, cheaply made, noisy piece of junk.

Regards.

But it is not a done deal yet. On the other side, Porsche suggests, that they want to protect current technical cooperation. Porsche Cayenne is essentially a Tuareg with a touch from porsche engineers. The car bodies even are built in the same factory in Slovakia, but Porsche does the final assembly steps itself.

I would say, VW is big enough to work on both. And the biggest part of engineering is taking place at the suppliers, such as Bosch.

If Porsche speaks about joint development (read - "add some additional money"), then I think it will be a plus. And if the module "X" is bugfree enough to be used in a mega expensive porsche, it will be good enough to be used in VW. Maybe without some more advanced features, maybe not so powerful, maybe from cheaper materials, but they will certainly invest some time/money to understand what they are doing.

Why this or that? Why not both? Ok, Honda and Toyota clearly missed the diesel train, perhaps due to a primary focus on the USA market. So, here you are: a petrol prius and petrol honda hybrid. But it does not necessary mean, that a diesel hybrid would be impossible.

Try telling this to the marketing guys :) And the show is actually run by them nowadays (and beancounters of course) :((

Hi David:

The hybrid concept is not a matter of sexy looks and it is not a fad - as the future will prove. As another engineer, I also like new technology, but even more, I like new technology that protects the planet we live on. Hybrids help do this, all-fossil fuel vehicles do not.

Regards.

But sir, the modern batteries do not produce the elecricity themselves. You still need to charge them. And you are likely to burn the fossil fuel when doing it. No?

No, it is just a small car, with a comfort of a small car. The interrior is OK.

I hear you, but have to be fully convinced about the merit of the package. There is that not so little issue of the batteries, and all of the heavy metals involved. Of course, from a simple conservation of energy approach, the idea of capturing the energy wasted during braking makes sense. The question is "is currently proposed hybrid technology the best method of doing so?"

Of couse, what about a diesel/electric hybrid. It has been done that way for some time with monster construction equipment and locomotives. Diesel to power a generator, driving motors directly at each wheel, and regenerative braking. Simplifies the drivetrain tremendously.

David Glos

Diesel/hybrids are a great concept, of course, and the drives-at-each-wheel is another great idea. Gasoline hybrids (without the driven wheel concept) are here now, and it is not a major change to add PHEV capability to the FULL hybrids such as the Toyota Prius and the Ford Escape. Toyota and Ford could do that next year if they wanted to (private individuals are already doing it, at least with the Prius).

Regards.

True, but emission controls at power plants are going to do much more cost-effective job than what gets put on a passenger vehicle. Put it this way, electric created at a plant for a thousand vehicles, versus a thousand diesel engine cars; which one will make less pollution?

Like centrally generated electric.

Or hydroelectric, solar and wind power. Even with oil, coal or gas they're much less likely to pollute AS MUCH as the passenger vehicles.

You neglect to mention that even while they might cost more they end up using a lot less fossil fuel in the process. The point here is to reduce fuel consumption, not justify doing nothing.

Properly recycled they're not an issue. And given the 8 year/100k mile warranties on them they're not a service issue either.