We need to stress here that the EPA does the testing and BY LAW the automakers must put on the sticker EXACTLY what the EPA tells them. It's illegal for them to over- OR under-state their fuel mileage.
Just a little FYI.
JP
Brian Running wrote in news:POLBg.5521$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com:
Drive both. The VW offers a better ride all around. Same deal with Civics and the like. Yeah, they're fine low-end cars but their ride just comes up short compared to the VW. To some that matters more than squabbling over gas mileage.
From what I have read, that is mostly with respect to the city EPA mileage for Toyota's hybrid cars.
One other factor to consider regarding VW, their 'home' market wants a car that can cruise the autoban(sp) for miles and hours. Takes a bit of tuning I suspect to have a small engine crank out 100mph for a couple hundred miles without wearing out or having problems from over work.
fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.
Yep, I'd rather have a car and numbers that actually matched real-world driving conditions not something artificial and unlikely to be reproduced. Well, I'd rather get great mileage AND real-world driving conditions... but that ain't happening any time soon it seems.
I don't think there's any need for a condescending tone, Jon. Look, FYI, the EPA uses a prescribed cycle which may or may not match real-world driving conditions. If your daily driving perfectly matches the methodology that the EPA uses, then you might get exactly the EPA's numbers in your real-world driving. If, on the other hand, you don't, your numbers are going to vary. Haven't you wondered why your actual mileage doesn't correspond exactly with the EPA's?
An engine with a torque curve that extends lower into the RPM range will be a better engine for around-town driving with any kind of load. It will handle multiple passengers or heavy loads in stride. An engine with a peaky torque curve that maxes up at 5000 RPM will need to be flogged harder in real-world driving, and if that car regularly carries four people or heavy loads, it's going to work harder and use more fuel. There's a reason some cars make their EPA numbers, some exceed them, and some don't make them. This is my explanation for this phenomenon.
Regardless of what the EPA says, my VWs have always exceeded their mileage figures in my real-world use.
FYI, your statement is incorrect. According to its own information, the EPA does not buy every car and test it for gas mileage. The EPA sets the test procedure, the manufacturers test their own vehicles, and the EPA confirms the tests on a small percentage of vehicles. In fact, the actual gas mileage is not even measured-- it is calculated based on a vehicle's emissions. See:
What Vehicles Are Tested? Not every vehicle is tested for fuel economy. Instead, manufacturers are required to split each model into smaller groups, based upon the various options available that can impact fuel economy (such as vehicle weight, transmission type and engine size). A vehicle from each of these groups with the highest projected sales must be tested. Also, passenger cars and light trucks with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) greater than 8,500 pounds are exempt from fuel economy requirements, and are not tested for fuel economy (however, they are still subject to Federal emission requirements.)
Manufacturers test all the vehicles at their laboratories. EPA confirms about 10-15 percent of the vehicles at its National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
How are Vehicles Tested?
Vehicles are driven over identical driving patterns by professional drivers in controlled laboratory conditions on a dynamometer, which is like a treadmill for cars. The conditions that occur during driving, such as wind drag and inertia are accounted for on the dynamometer. There are two types of tests that are conducted: city and highway tests.
The city test is approximately 11 miles long and simulates a stop and go trip with an average speed of about 20 miles per hour (mph). The trip lasts
31 minutes and has 23 stops. About 18 percent of the time is spent idling (as in waiting for traffic lights). A short freeway driving segment is included in the test. The engine is initially started after being parked overnight.The highway test simulates a 10 mile trip with an average speed of 48 mph. The vehicle is started "hot" and there is very little idling and no stops
How Are the Label Estimates Calculated?
Fuel economy estimates are calculated from the emissions generated during the tests using a carbon balance equation. We know how much carbon is in the fuel, so by precisely measuring the carbon compounds expelled in the exhaust we can calculate the fuel economy.
After the vehicles have been tested, the results are adjusted downward to account for conditions that occur on the road that can affect fuel economy which don't occur during laboratory testing, such as cold temperature, aggressive driving, excessive use of power-hungry accessories, among others. The city is adjusted downward by 10 percent, and the highway by 22 percent. The equation for calculating the city or highway average fuel economy, given in miles per gallon (mpg), is:
FEave = (total sales / [(sales1/FE1)+ (sales2/FE2) + ...+ (salesn/FEn)]
The calculation for combined fuel economy weights the city at 55 percent and the highway at 45 percent using the following equation:
FEcomb = 1 / (( .55 / city FE) + (.45 / hwy FE))
Because they don't make the 1.8T anymore. Unless you meant the 2.0T? But that's 200 hp, not exactly what you'd put into an "economy" Rabbit. I'm referring to the 1.4L Twincharger engine, found in the Euro Golf GT:
-- Mike S
That's true, but it still doesn't necessarily mean that the EPA number will translate well into the real world.
-- Mike Smith
This part is simply ludicrous. How hard would it be to conduct a real test on a laid-out road course, and measure the actual fuel used? Next thing you know, they'll do the "test" by rolling some dice, adding them up, and then writing down some completely different random number.
-- Mike Smith
I absolutely agree, but there were some undertones in some responses (and in other places I've heard stated outright) that the japanese manufacturers rig the tests or outright lie on the sticker. It's really not up to them. JP
Mike Smith wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.supernews.com:
Brian Running wrote in news:Tt1Cg.6192 $ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:
?? Didn't know I did.
No. At least no further than the fact the epa tests under strictly controlled criteria, while I'm out there flooring it! ;)
completely agree!
That's great to hear, and as many others have said the same, it helps ease my mind. It's still obvious to me, from epa numbers or other owners, that the corolla and civic DO get fantasic gas mileage, and for the driving I do I would probably realized very, very good gas mileage from them.. and therefore (relatively speaking) the VW get's worse gas mileage.
Of course, I browsed a rabbit this weekend and was instantly in love...
JP
"Keep on Plonkin'" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:
VERY interesting, and thanks for educating me. It doesn't change the fact the epa tells the manufacturers they can't post higher or lower numbers on the sticker, but the methodology is interesting.
Mike Smith wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.supernews.com:
AH! dungeons-and-dragons fuel economy. "You're driving on the highway at a steady 70mph... roll a 3d10 to determine your actual fuel economy"
:)
It's not that they can rig the tests, but they most assuredly can "rig" the car! Couple examples immediately spring to mind:
In any event, automakers certainly can optimize the car to the test, even if in the real world it makes no difference.
Kevin Rhodes Westbrook, Maine '00 Saab 9-5 V6t Wagon (usually beat the EPA mileage by 2-3mpg) used to have a '02 Golf TDI - always got better than EPA with it.
I agree--MPG calculated by a carbon-balancing calculation? Now that's real world. But hey, its the government-- they must know what's right!
When you were reading this (and thanks for the information) did you see if any accessorys are turned on? What I mean is if the headlights are on, then that is extra load on the generator which in turn adds load to the engine. Same obviousily with the radio and any other electrical stuff in the car.
fundamentalism, fundamentally wrong.
The EPA test was also designed in the mid-1970s, with acceleration and braking rates matching the capabilities of cars of the time (4000 pound cars with 125hp and four wheel drum brakes that fade). Automatics are obviously easier to optimize for the EPA test without being intrusive to the driver (with upshift lights or gearing selections that the driver of a manual might not like).
Very gentle acceleration and braking like in the EPA test will run in full battery mode with maximum regenerative braking; the best flat road fuel economy that I have seen on a Prius' MPG display (75mpg or so) was during
5-25mph freeway traffic jams with gentle acceleration and braking.The EPA's measuring of emissions also means that it does not measure whether the battery is at a different charge level at the end of the test.
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