Sorry Sal, you want real world? Here it is.
I spent 18 years working the dirty end of an ambulance.
In my REAL WORLD experience bigger and heaver wins almost EVERY time.
Say what you THINK, I KNOW what I SAW.
Yukon could roll over possibly causing paralysis or death.
Yukons also have an EXTREMELY HIGH death rate of 92 per million
registered vehicle years.
Even small cars like the Mini Cooper and Honda Civic are FAR safer
than a Yukon.
What SUV owners don't understand is it's NOT important how your
vehicle does in a crash, it's important how the driver/passengers do
in a crash. A Safe Car like a Honda Accord or Volvo S80 may be totaled
in a crash, but the driver may walk away without a scratch. A Yukon or
Excursion may only have moderate damage in a crash, but the driver/
passengers may have life threatening injuries.
The Ford Excursion has an EXTREMELY high 115 deaths per million
registered vehicle years.
TINY cars such as the Toyota Echo, Volkswagen Golf, Saturn Ion, Nissan
Sentra, Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volvo S40, Kia
Spectra, and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than an Excursion.
All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR
safer than a Yukon.
So much for stupid theories that Big SUVs are safer, REAL WORLD
ACCIDENTS DISPROVE stupid theories from SUV owners.
I never said small cars are safer, I said out of all the vehicle
segments, Midsize Luxury cars are the safest vehicles overall. I was
just saying that some SUVs are so dangerous that even small cars are
safer than them.
The fact that The Hummer H2 and the Ford Excursion have MUCH MUCH
higher death and injury rates than the safest cars just goes to show
you that Size alone doesn't buy you safety. When an 18 wheeler is
about to t-bone you, it's much better to be in a 2008 V6 Accord or a
2008 V8 Volvo S80 than in an Excursion or Hummer H2. at least the cars
accelerate themselves out of trouble while the SUVs can't.
Answer me this, HOW many SUVs have 25 out of 25 stars in the 5 NHTSA
crash tests? The answer is 0.
There are many cars that get 5 stars in all 5 categories, but NO SUVS
Here's just one of the dozens of cars that got 25 out of 25 stars in
the crash tests.
Can any of the so called SAFE SUV owners even find ONE SUV that has 25
out of 25 stars in the NHTSA crash test ratings?
The statistics you are using take no account of driver skill or miles
driven. Midsize luxury cars are primarily owned by richer, older drivers,
who on average, are likely to be much safer drivers. Even with this
disparity, SUVs and Luxury cars have very similar injury loss histories (see
This is not a true statement.
Injury loss rating for the 2003-2005 Ford Excursion is 74, well below
average for all vehicles. The injury loss rating for the 2003-2005 H2 Hummer
is 61. These ratings are better than the majority of cars (small, medium,
large, luxury, etc.). There are cars with better ratings, but most are worse
and many are far worse. The very safest car in the 2003-2005 injury loss
ratings is the Audi Allroad Quattro wagon 4WD with a 45 injury loss rating.
Admittedly this is much better than the Excursion, but it is also much
better than the following cars (model / injury loss rating):
Cadillac STS 4dr 2WD/4WD 74
Mercedes E class 4dr 76
Volvo S80 4dr 76 105
Lexus GS series 4dr 79
Lincoln LS 4dr 79
BMW 5 series 4dr 84
Cadillac CTS 4dr 98
Infiniti G35 4dr 4WD 72
BMW 3 series conv 72
BMW 3 series 4dr 4WD 75
Saab 9-3 conv 77
Acura TL series 4dr 77
Lexus ES series 4dr 80
Mercedes CLK class 2dr 80
Mercedes CLK class conv 81
Infiniti G35 2dr 86
Infiniti G35 4dr 88
Volvo S60 4dr 88
Mercedes C class 4dr 4WD 90
BMW 3 series 2dr 91
Volvo S60 4dr 4WD 91
BMW M3 2dr 95
BMW 3 series 4dr 99
Jaguar X-Type 4dr 4WD 104
Mercedes C class 2dr 108
Mercedes C class 4dr 114
Lexus IS 300 4dr 123
How does this fit in with your claim that Large SUVs are more dangerous than
So I should get a Mustang 500KR? Just how often do you think this sort of
2007 Volvo S80: 0-60 8.6 Sec
2007 Chevrolet Tahoe: 0-60 9.0 sec
2007 Expedition LE: 0-60 9.1 Sec (they no longer sell Excursions, the EL
Expedition is the replacement)
2008 Accord V-6: 0-60 7.4
2008 Accord I-4: 0-60 9.8
So using your theory, the V6 accord is the safest vehicle in this list and
the I-4 Accord is the least safe? Do you really think if an 18 wheeler is
bearing down on you the difference in acceleration between the Volvo and
Tahoe will determine whether or not you get out of the way? I could make the
argument that the higher driving position of the SUV gives you a better
chance of seeing the 18 wheeler coming, giving you a lot more time to get
out of the way.
There are not five NHTSA "CRASH" tests. It is bad enough when you cherry
pick statistics, but now you are just making them up out of thin air. There
are four crash tests (Front Driver, Front Passenger, Side Driver, Side Rear
Passenger). There is also a rollover rating, but this is most definitely is
not a CRASH test. There are many SUVs that get five stars in the four crash
tests. There are no SUVs that get five stars in the rollover rating, but
this is to be expected. All things being equal, taller vehicles will
rollover sooner than lower vehicles - simple physics. Despite this, there
are many SUVs with four star rollover ratings and actually the majority of
cars also have four star rollover ratings (see
http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/ and look for yourself).
Define "many." The majority of cars don't get five stars in the four crash
test and in the rollover rating. So although there are no SUVs with 5 stars
in all the NHTSA rating categories, there are not that many cars that do so
either. In fact out of 243 2008 passenger cars listed in the NHTSA database
there are only two 2008 passenger cars that get five five star ratings:
2008 Acura RL 4-DR. w/SAB
2008 Lincoln Town Car 4-DR. w/SAB
I looked at 2008 Models, and there were only the two I mentioned above.
Your link does not work. It takes me to the same NHTSA site (safercar.org,
but says "Sorry, this feature is currently unavailable"). Perhaps you were
sending me to the comparison chart that shows that most cars only get four
stars in the rollover rating?
No vehicle has 25 out of 25 stars in NHTSA "CRASH" test ratings, since there
are only four "CRASH" test ratings. Many SUVs have 24 out of 25 stars in the
four crash test ratings plus the rollover rating. Most cars don't have as
many as 24 out of 25 stars in these ratings.
It is fine with me that you don't like SUVs. Many people don't. Don't buy
one. But you should miss state facts in an effort to paint a false picture.
Whether you like it or not, your chances of being injured in an average SUV
or less than your chances of being injured in an average car (by average, I
don't mean an average Porsche, Lexus, or Mercedes).
1) If you can't take a little light in your eyes, you shouldn't be on
2) If you cannot drive around in a parking lot without hitting an SUV,
then you should be driving PERIOD!
3) If you can't see, buy an SUV. They usually sit higher, and thus you
will be able to view the road better avoiding hazards.
4) Trucks and SUVs are safer. Where in the world are you getting your
information from? And also everytime I turn around, it's us SUV drivers
that have to pull a VW or some other little toy car out of our butt
because they can see what is going on and then, by extenstion, grow
impatient and can't wait 2 seconds or they feel you have to weave in and
out of traffic like a moron.
5) I would gladly pay a little more (at the pump and off the lot) and
put any one of my loved ones in an SUV because of all the dumb @$$
drivers that shouldn't be on the road to begin with, to keep my friends
and family safe.
6) The "people" that bought these trucks to "look cool" that you are
speaking of... all have money. They don't care about how much they drop
at the pump, just as long as their lifestyle doesn't change.
7) You speak of towing a boat -- BOATS CONSUME MORE GASOLINE FASTER AND
ARE LESS EFFICIENT. - Start yelling at Yacht and speed boat owners if
you want to yell about gas consumption and the conservation thereof.
8) The hard working people that do use their cars and/or trucks for work
get screwed in the end. The reimbursement for mileage is a joke. You
have to figure, that reimbursement needs to cover - NOT ONLY GAS but oil
changes, regular maintenance, parts, ware & tear and depreciation of the
vehicle. (Also, if you cannot do your own work, now you have to factor
in Labor and Service costs)
9) If want to piss and moan! --- Go yell at the people who talk on the
phone, fix their hair and makup and/or read the newspaper all while
driving 15MPH in the passing lane or 90MPH almost killing someone. OR
The rubbernecking morons that have to stop or slow to 1 to 2 MPH because
they think they are entitled to a front row seat to someone else's
misery. --- I know, how does this effect the topic of this conversation?
Well, these people bring traffic to screeching halt. -- Decreasing the
life span of your breaks as you start rolling and then stop again. Oh
yeah, also, it consumes a lot more gasoline while idling, stopping then
starting again. (Also known as "City Driving")
FINNALY) The illogical jump that you make in your final sentence of your
comment... Is exactly that, ILLOGICAL! If there were no SUVs one the
road... and that was a needed resource... who would you blame then? --
You show anything but emotion without forethought or reasoning and I
don't think you see the big picture. Aside from "those big bad SUV
owners", how do the planes you fly get off the ground? How do the trains
that transport the goods throughout the country get from one coast to
the other? How do the ships that export and import the goods you produce
and use run? And just possibly, what is used to power the electricity in
your home? Oil? (It may be)
I try and keep myself politically neutral from the world. I neither
agree nor disagree with the actions or statements that political
entities make. I do not wish to see anyone killed or suffer. I say what
I say because it is always easy to point a finger. Few people actually
take the time to see more than one or two points of view. I do not claim
to know everything but then again, I am not stupid either. If you look
at these situations logically, there is no one easy fix. A untrusting
world has dependantcies on other contries it doesn't wish to or can't
rely on. These issues are somewhat out of my hands.
It would be in my best interest if I could take care of ways to make my
SUV, house, life, etc. more efficent so that I use less gas, I don't
complain about the gas prices, I just try and find ways to make my tank
last a little longer.
[You know, I started out writing this aggrivated but I have since calm
down. Please try and think things through before your emotions lash out
at innocent people. -- I will try to also heed my own counsel]
On sun, 14 sep 2008 11:01:48 -0400, Enforcer wrote:
I don't see the original post, so must be posting from the abuse-ridden
If people are too stupid or unqualified to drive that a big SUV causes them
to have a accident then they shouldn't be on the road.
I have a '99 Suburban with only about 56,000 miles on it because I only use
it when I need to haul things or people. When I need the hauling capacity
I need it. Otherwise I rarely drive it.
If you really think we are in Iraq because of SUV's you are a total moron.
Terrorism is a real threat to world peace. Saddam was a terrorist who
intended to dominate the world. He defied UN resolutions and there was
ample evidence of WMD being built. If the UN wasn't so stupid in telling
Saddam when and where they were going to inspect days in advance, the UN
inspectors would have had "smoking guns." Saddam intended to use these
weapons on his neighbors. He openly stated his intentions. So is Iran.
If need be, we have full right to destroy their nuclear programs.
Unfortunately, we let them go so long that they are no longer accessible.
We waited too long. Now, the only way to stop Iran is with a nuclear
attack on the their assembly plants, which are covered with way too much
reinforced concrete to penetrate with anything but a nuclear bomb.
Easy Mike, this is an old old thread.
And nukes won't be necessary to get to Iran's nuke facilities.
My company makes the penetrator nose cones for the bunker busters.
Those things will penetrate 20 ft of reinforced concrete.
We just sold 1000 of them to Israel. Pending congressional approval of
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