Lower Press Rad Cap

Sno Man was talking about using lower press rad cap under certain circumstances...... Wonder if I can use a 9 psi cap on a 2.2l Chev s-10 with 60-40 Dex and a 180
deg. thermostat? Stock cap is 19 psi. What ya think, SnoMan? Thanks, Pete
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On 3/24/2009 9:06 PM, Pete wrote:

I have been using low pressure caps for over 20 years now and I have even been up Pikes Peak twice with them too and with no problems. You do need to run 60/40 or higher for two reasons. One it raises boil point of coolant (more on this later) and it also increases corrosion protection a good bit as well. There is also some myths about the cooling capacity of water verse Glycol in antifreeze. While is does indeed take about twice as much heat energy to boil a gallon of water off verse a gallon of pure antifreeze and convert it to vapor (and likely where myth started) we do not cool a engine with "steam" vapor. In a liquid state, glycol is heavier and denser than water and it takes more heat to heat it a liquid state. Now getting back to raising boil point of coolant. When water or low concentration coolant contacts a hot engine block or heads it tends to flash to steam on contact and form a minute bubble barrier around hot surface. A high pressure cap help minimize this and also helps to try to overcome waters higher surface tension (the tendency to resist bubble break down once they form) With high concentrations of antifreeze two things happens. One it raises boil point of coolant and two it reduces surface tension resulting is better heat transfer to coolant. Some may claim that a car runs cooler with water than antifreeze but this is not quite true. The temperature gauge records temperature of coolant, not engine block and with higher concentrations of antifreeze the coolant and block are closer to same temperature. A few more tips, conventional antifreeze (Ethylene Glycol) reaches lowest freeze point at a 70/30 mixture and starts to increase after that but even at 80/20 it is still low enough for most climates (except far northern states, Canada and Alaska) but even then it never really freezes solid and expands but rather slushes and will not damage parts containing it. One more thing. There is another antifreeze out there made out of Propylene Glycol some times called Low Tox antifreeze (because it is not toxic to pets and humans unlike Ethylene Glycol) This anti freeze require no water mixed with it if you choose because it reaches its maximum boil point (about 340F) and maximum freeze/slush point (around minus 85) in its 100% pure state. This coolant in it pure state has long been used for liquid cooled aircraft engines and arctic operations. Sorry if I got a bit wordy on reply.
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Pete wrote:

I'm not sno man but I can't imagine why in the world you'd want to do that. You will leave yourself no margin for error if you get into an overheat situation.
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Some people think they know better then the people the designed the Engine in the first place. Seems like a dumb move to me also, but it's not my car.
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On 3/26/2009 1:39 AM, JBDragon wrote:

Ignorance is bliss for some as seen in these last few posts. I have not had to change a radiator hose in over 20 years with low pressure caps. Those high pressure caps are for those that may just run water or not enough antifreeze to raise boil point of mixture against hot metal. Detroit tries to build idiot proof cars and the high pressure cap is part of that. Just like the Dexi problem. "Dexi" was a attempt to save money by staying with 50/50 coolant with a mixed metal engine. When spread over millions of cars it adds up. Many have seen cooling system problems for Dexi if it is not flushed from time to time but I have had zero problems with Dexi because I run 60/40 or better with it. I have a 2000 that I bought new that I have never flushed or replaced coolant but I did increase it to about 70/30 when new. Coolant still looks like new and radiator tank and even overflow bottle is still clean as new. You can run in the "box" with the herd or think outside of the "box" here. The choice is yours.
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| Ignorance is bliss for some as seen in these last few posts. I have not | had to change a radiator hose in over 20 years with low pressure caps. | Those high pressure caps are for those that may just run water or not | enough antifreeze to raise boil point of mixture against hot metal. | Detroit tries to build idiot proof cars and the high pressure cap is | part of that. Just like the Dexi problem. "Dexi" was a attempt to save | money by staying with 50/50 coolant with a mixed metal engine. When | spread over millions of cars it adds up. Many have seen cooling system | problems for Dexi if it is not flushed from time to time but I have had | zero problems with Dexi because I run 60/40 or better with it. I have | a 2000 that I bought new that I have never flushed or replaced coolant | but I did increase it to about 70/30 when new. Coolant still looks like | new and radiator tank and even overflow bottle is still clean as new. | You can run in the "box" with the herd or think outside of the "box" | here. The choice is yours.
There are reasons why the pressure cap installed at the factory is 17-19 lbs.
Let me state right now that I am NOT an expert and am replying only to increase the general knowledge surrounding the original subject and to lend my years of learned experience to the general discussion about thermostats, pressure caps and Dexcool coolant.
First, the thermostat installed in G.M. engines are ALL 195 degree F regardless of whether the engine is gasoline or diesel. Back in the 1970's, (I've been issuing G.M. parts since 1973), G.M. did offer a 180 degree thermostat for some applications but have not offered an alternate for many years.
Federal emmission laws dictate the 195 degree thermostat based on meeting emission control standards and how the engineers designed the emissions systems to meet the federal emission laws. G.M. engines must operate at 195 degrees F in order for all of the emission control devices to funtion properly in order to meet federal emission control standards.
To delay the water / coolant mixture from boiling off, it must be under pressure as additional pressure raises the boiling point of the coolant mixture. Pure water boils at 212 degrees when not under pressure and that boiling point increases to 257 degrees when placed under 17 lbs of pressure.
Dexcool is very corrosive in nature and using a mixture greater than 50/50 will increase (not decrease) the electrolysis process of the different metals involved (iron, steel, aluminum, brass and copper). I have serious doubts about the claims being made above as genuine and completely truthful. Because Dexcool is corosive by its very design, having a pristine cooling system without any maintenance (as claimed above) leaves a big question mark in my mind as to the poster's real agenda.
Dexcool degradates both aluminum and solder (a tin / lead mixture) and is the main cause of cooling system leaks when the 50/50 mixture recommendation is not followed.
If there is an automotive engineer reading this thread, please expound on my tiny bit of knowledge and correct any statement that is not correct. My intention is not to mislead, but I may be misinformed or may be skewering facts based upon my personal knowledge. All I have is the years of experience listening to certified and master technicians during the act of specifying parts for them to install to effect repairs.
An alternative to using Dexcool is the AMSOIL coolant which is propylene glycol based. It is biodegradable, and, unlike Dexcool, has a low toxicity. AMSOIL coolant has a recommended life of 250,000 when used in automotive and light truck applications and 750,000 miles when used in OTR applications.
To find out more about a Dexcool alternative, visit the link below: https://www.amsoil.com/redirect.cgi?zo 90163&page=storefront/ant
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On 3/26/2009 3:12 PM, Steve wrote:

This is somewhat true. It also improves MPG a bit too due to slightly lower heat loss to block from hot gasses.

While it does increase boil point (which is needed because of high surfaces temps) it also reduces the steam/gas bubble barrier that forms on hot parts. Just because you coolant is running at 200 or 210 it does not mean that all metal parts are that temp too as some can be a lot hotter. Temp gauge measure coolant temp not block temp.

Boy did you miss the boat here, go back to school. Increasing coolant concentration increases corrosion protection not decreases it. This claim is way out there. Water is the most reactive part of coolant not the glycol. Then there is the claim that Dexi is corrosive too which is another hair brained claim. Brass does not react will coolant much nor does copper. The problem is Aluminum and cast iron/steel mixed in block parts that coolant contacts and a galvanic reaction that it causes in the presence of WATER. Dexi was a attempt by GM to save money and stay with 50/50 (which could add up to some coin over millions of vehicles and GM is ALWAYS looking for cheaper, not better, ways to build cars) Running 60/40 or better eliminates this problem. I could post pictures of coolant over flow tanks on four vehicles here 9 years old and older that are spotless and inside ot raditor tanks that are clean too but some one would say I staged it so I do not bother. Waste you money and time doing it GM way if you want to. (they do want car to wear out or become a maintainance hog so you buy another new one from them)

Dexi does not degrade anything. It is the galvanic reaction between different metal in water that cause this. The less water the less reaction. I have run Dexi for over 10 years now with ZERO problems because I DO NOT use 50/50.

You intention is to mislead because you do not understand process (galvantic reaction) and how to control it yet offer bad advise based on this late of understanding of chemistry involved. (BTW, I have a engineering background too)

Now the punch line and Amsoil ad. Dexi and most other coolants used last 50 plus years are based on Ethylene Glycol (before that it was alcohol) Propylene Glycol has been fairly available for over 15 years WITHOUT having to buy Amsoil brand to get it. AmsOil has done nothing new here. One big plus of Propylene Glycol is that you do not need to use any water with it because it reaches maximum boil temp and lowest freezing temperature in a 100% concentration (unlike Ethylene Glycol which reaches max boil at 100% but lowest freeze at around 70%)

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On 4/14/2009 11:29 AM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Grow up Heat wave, the only one you are hurting here is yourself and proving what a insecure person you really are.

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Hurting myself how? I'm not following your advice so I think I'm pretty safe. I'm simply informing others that you are full of bs by posting links that contain your own words.

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wrote:

Hurting myself how? I'm not following your advice so I think I'm pretty safe. I'm simply informing others that you are full of bs by posting links that contain your own words.

I know I had a laugh reading them links.
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Thanks, SnoMan. I just crawled out of the box....!!!!! ha ha ha.....Running great so far and no problems....even with that nasty ole Dex !!!!!...but only 117,000 mi so far. (I just like that purty red color) Only about 50 mi with the low press rad cap....will keep one eye on it. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Pete
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Pete wrote:

Good luck Pete. You are the classic example of the blind following the blind. Car and truck manufacturers spend millions of dollars, excuse me, billions of dollars engineering long lasting mostly trouble free vehicles. I don't mean U.S. manufacturers I mean all worldwide. None of them use low pressure cooling systems except for vehicles made back in the early years of the century. It's funny how easily you dismiss their expertise for an internet engineer.
Good luck on your experiment after all the only one it's going to hurt is you.
Oh yeah, sno man if you read this, I think you're full of shit!
nobody #1
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