Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

Hmmm...change the filter, the oil pressure drops. On one car...ok..old worn out engine.

Two cars? Well, maybe old worn out engines.

Three cars? I'm beginning to see a trend here.

And one of the old, worn out engines only has 139,000 miles on it, not much for a Japanese car. And records I do have show oil changes every

4,500 miles.

Which also gets me. Soobs have horizontally opposed engines, with the cylinders lying flat just above the oil line. So, not all of the oil drains out of the cylinders, so when you start, they aren't totally 'dry' like an upright engine is.

You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem. So why did I see it on two different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?

No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K miles.) And what difference does it make anyway? You really mean to say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if so, I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!

nate

Mine wasn't a beater either. Kinda funny that it broke in and ran perfect with no oil pressure issues at all until I tried a Fram filter. I suspect some might find it hilarious that the problem vanished once I took the Fram filter off and never returned. Dunno about you Nate, but I was born yesterday, but not last night. :/ Whether this has anything to do with the OP's problem I don't know. I'd never heard of a Fram filter causing lower run pressures. That's a new one on me, but there is no doubt at all that the anti drain valves are fairly useless. Normally, if one noticed a lower pressure by using a certain filter, I would suspect it is restrictive, usually due to being a "super" filtering model. But the orange Fram filter is not one of those. It's a stock plain jane filter. I'll be interested to hear what the pressures are when he changes to another brand filter. I forgot what he said they are running as far as pressure. In general, you usually want to see about 10 pounds of pressure for each 1000 rpm. IE: 3000 rpm, you should see at least 30 lb's oil pressure.

Me and the car manufacturers and many knowledable mechanics haven't seen it as a problem.

I have seen where a fram filter used on an old engine that previously used another brand filter did plug up pretty damn fast. And when I removed the Fram filter, it felt heavy like it was full of lead. That happened in just an hour of engine operation. So yes I do get why some people are having problems. But in my opinion the filter is not really the cause.

The point you can't seem to grasp is that the common denominator here is not the Fram filter, but the application it is used on - an old engine. The car manufacturers have not found a problem with Fram filters on their late model engines. Do you know for a fact that the tube on the slant six filter housing was the correct length for the filter you installed? Do you know if someone had removed or replaced that part and if replaced was it original equipment? The answer to those questions is obviously no, but yet you're superstitious belief is that the filter is to blame and not your misapplication of the filter. BTW I just looked up that part up and it is described as OIL FILTER STANDPIPE/VALVE. That sounds to me like the engine came with a check valve in the filter outlet tube. But that valve isn't going to help prevent the symptoms you described if the tube (standpipe) is the wrong length for the filter.

This old article from Popular Mechanics contains a short description of the problem:

You tell me what difference it makes - I don't have the engine. If I had the engine I could probably tell you where the problem is.

Yeah well maybe if a filter that removes more dirt from the oil had been used all along there would never be a problem. But you and your superstitions are free to do whatever you want.

-jim

Well if it was rebuilt it wasn't new and likely wasn't anywhere close to being like original. Are you talking about a slant six engine?

It's kinda suspicious that you can't keep your story straight. Previously you said Fram was used right after the rebuild. Now you make it sound like you used other filters and used the Fram much later. You know anyone can make up a story and tell it on usenet.

-jim

The guy in the article said he had the same problem with all filters, so that standpipe might be the answer. I drove a '74 Dart with that 225 for years and never had an issue. Lot's of voodoo here. A knowledge of oil flow through a particular engine where Frams supposedly cause problems would be useful. I suspect most of the complaints about Fram have nothing to do with drainback, but with resistance to flow. Maybe air pocketing and how the particular system handles that. Just a guess, though. But nothing an oil pressure gage couldn't determine pretty quick with the right method.

--Vic

I started this thread because a while ago I posted a post in the Soob group about my '89 losing oil pressure. Now, the oil pressure wasn't fantastic when I bought it, but it got worse, *FAST*! Then someone made a remark about Fram oil filters. Now, I use Quaker State, Castrol and Valvoline (Mostly QS and Castrol) in my engines; never the bargain basement or Wal*Mart stuff. I get the oil at AutoZone,and they often have a deal including a Fram filter, so I get them.

I'll be replacing the Fram on the Soob with a Wix this weekend, and we'll see what happens...

It's just funny, on three different cars, after installing a Fram filter the oil pressure suffered an immediate drop!

Is it a good filter? I hope so. I usually use the Extra Gaurd, and the last 'special' was a Tough Gaurd, but still the pressure dropped...

The Vibe was built at Nummi in California.

They were all the same pump, regardless if it used the long or short filter.The standpipe was long untill 1972 so the older engine could not use the PH43 - only the PH8A (or equivalent) (Long filter)

The FL1A Motorcraft filter is a direct fit replacement for the PH8A and has a VERY superior construction. The Napa Gold filter is almost as good and around heare costs more. I believe the FL1A used to be called the FL30001 - and it had a double sealed drainback valve .

There is no valve in the standpipe - or al least there wasn't in the

63 170, the 65 225 or the 69 225. (long standpipe) and I never had problems using the long non-fram filters on ANY of my Mopars.

Oh, yeah. I forgot. You guys already had your Thanksgiving...

Yes, but you have no way of knowing what part was on the car in question. The guy who owned the car doesn't know what it had.

Well your missing valve would explain why you were having problems.

But I suspect you were just unaware that the valve was there and quite likely if you had problems with the oil draining back then the valve was not functioning properly. Again this is something ore likely to happen in an old dirty engine. I was not aware there was a check valve in the outlet, but I never encountered the problem so there would be no reason to be looking for a cause. It does make sense that this type of design would need a valve in the outlet.

I found 2 sources that describe the part as "oil filter standpipe w/valve".

And another popular mechanics article describing what what happens if the valve sticks in the closed position:

-jim

How do you know what it was like? And what would rebuild tolerances have to do with an anti drainback valve working or not? The engine was close enough to original to run like a new original engine. It still runs like a new engine. I don't know what else you want to hear. And actually I don't care. And no it was not a slant six. It is a Ford 300 six with the filter mounted horizontal to the side of the engine.

Yea, and anyone can be a horses ass on the internet too.. I used the fram filter about 5000 miles or so after the rebuild. I consider that right after the rebuild, and the reason I said that was you were implying that my engine was a beater and all crudded out. It was not. It was a very clean engine. I used only motorcraft FL1A's except for that one time when I used the Fram which I got free, was laying around, and I decided to try it even knowing about the anti drain valve problem. The damn thing flaked out on me that very night and I had trouble building oil pressure after cold starting. Which it had never done using the FL1A. Ever! I took the damn thing off that night and replaced it with a FL1A and never saw the problem again. PERIOD!

If you like Fram filters, use the sorry things. I won't, and I don't care if it chaps every whiny asshole named Jim from here to New York City. Anyone that actually has a clue is familiar with the problem. I knew about it before I tried it, but curiosity got the better of me and I wanted to see it for myself. I did see it, and I won't ever use one again. Like I said, it's not something I just made up. Like one said, you've never seen the problem, so according to you it can't exist.. What an asshole... :/ I'm through with this thread. I've covered everything I need to talk about concerning sorry Fram oil filters. And I'm sure had my fill of talking to a horses ass.

You tell me that. Your the one claiming there is some sort of oil pressure problem but you haven't explained the circumstances with enough clarity for any one reading it to determine anything. The only thing you have said that sounded clear and reliable is that that you hated Fram filters before you even tried the first one, and that you tried that one filter on a fairly old engine which you rebuilt. That is hardly the mountain of evidence you seem to think it is.

Yes it is something you just made up. You do not have much evidence. Your tale is one rather poorly remembered single incident. I have seen engines with various types of oil pressure problems and most of them were not using Fram filters.

Nobody denies there is a lot of Fram detractors on Usenet. That is a fact - no one doubts you can find people who agree with you. But if the only evidence you can muster is everybody else says the Fram filter is bad - that is no evidence at all.

I don't claim Fram filters never fail, but I know that anyone who claims they always fail is simply lying. Studies have shown that the failure rate for the drain back valve on Fram's is no different than many other brands. It may come as a surprise to you but brand new engines sometimes fail.

Read the following from a service technician that spent 35 years looking at the problems that can occur with Ford engines under warranty"

***** START QUOTE****** For many years I worked in Ford Quality Services Dyno. Part of our responsibility was to disassemble dealer return 4.6 and early 5.4 engines from across North America. These were noise concerns, catastrophic failures, you name it. Engines that were pulled from customers vehicles under warranty. We had engines from everyday drivers, taxi, limo, police, raceing, delivery service, etc. I think I can safely say I have seen it all when it comes to engine failures be it abuse or other wise. We dissasembled, analized, and wrote reports on our findings and determination on root cause of failure.

All filters be it air, fuel, oil have the potential to induce contamination from the very material it is constructed of. The very filter material that is designed to remove contaminates can breakdown and migrate into down stream engine components. Any filter regardless of manufacture has this potential. We have seen this with Mass air, fuel injectors, oil passages ( restrictors). it happens because anything mechanical has the potential to fail.

We would write reports based on our teardown analysis of the failed engine. This report would be used for determination of warranty approval or denial. I cannot remember when a warranty was denied because a specific brand of oil filter was used. Now I've seen failures where we found the original factory oil filter still on the engine after twenty to sixty or seventy thousand miles and this was noted in the report. A much bigger factor for warranty claim is regular maintainance with receipts/records intact. I simply do not believe a dealer has the legal right to deny a claim based on what brand of oil or filter the customer used. I personally have never seen this happen. We would get police vehicles with blown engines from high speed chases. The records would show they used some off brand filter with bulk oil but had regular oil changes at recommended intervals. They still were covered under warranty. I have recieved failed engines with every brand or off brand oil filter you can imagine and it was not a determining factor of warranty denial or acceptance. Keeping receipts and maintainance records for each vehicle is paramount.

Therefore the Fram versus Motorcraft debate in my opinion is mute. I have used Fram as well as motorcraft and others. If I have a particular concern ( start up knock for example) with one over the other then I stick with the one I have confidence in. I have never seen a warranty denial because a Fram filter was on the engine or as I stated any brand filter for that matter.

This is just based on my experience. I don't claim to know everything about this topic. But I know that Ford does value a customer and tries to satisfy them. After spending much time also as a dealer panel rep I can tell you there is always two sides of the story to every warranty claim. The dealers and the customers. I learned not to make any judgement until I heard both sides. You would be surprised how the story can change once you get everyone in room together....

If you are abusing your vehicle or neglecting regular maintainance they can and will decipher it and you very well may foot the bill on a failure replacement or repair. If not then the dealer should take care of you regardless of the oil filter brand. ***** END QUOTE******

Indeed.

Had a CAnadian supplier call me yesterday. I guess it was "thursday" to him.

nate

(pecan pie for breakfast! woo hoo!)

We'll see what happens after I change the Soob filter...

If I believe what you believe I would not buy a Fram filter.

I've covered everything I need to talk about concerning sorry Fram oil filters. And I'm sure had my fill of talking to a horses ass.

The test will only be meaningful and valid if you go to the dealer and get the manufacturers recommended filter.

"Jim" and "Mike Hunter" are the same person? It all makes sense now.

nate