As if the WSJ cares about the men and women who work in American
By the way, cutting fuel consumption:
- Helps hold back increases in global CO2 levels and, probably, helps check
- Improves our balance of trade (since much of our oil is imported).
- Reduces funds available to terrorists and dictators.
Even if you don't think GW is a real threat, the other two problems
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
According to Environmental Attorney Robert F. Kennedy, Jr, senior
counsel for the National Resources Defense Fund:
* If we raise fuel efficiency standards in American cars by one mile
per gallon, in one year, we would save twice the amount of oil that
could be obtained from the arctic national wildlife refuge
* Raise it by 2.7 miles a gallon to eliminate all the oil imports from
Iraq and Kuwait combined
* Raise it by 7.6 mpg, we eliminate one-hundred percent of our gulf oil
imports into this country
He must be assuming buyers will buy those smaller cars at the same rate they
buy cars available on the market today. Even Toyota buyers prefer the
larger safer Camry over the Corolla. How many would want a Camry with a
smaller motor, or one as small as the Camry sold ten years ago I wonder?
Giving the tax money, paid by one American worker to another, to be passed
on to a foreign corporation that does not pay US corporate income taxes, is
a bit hard for some of our elected leaders to swallow.
Yeah, that's bad, considering the Prius is a very cheap car. They should
look at facts in these cases, that way everybody doesn't think morons are
writing for the wall street journal..
Most of the people I know drive something like a Chevy Silverado that costs
as much as 2 Priuses.
I just bought a new Corolla (5-speed) that gets 32-41 mpg and I paid
$14,400 on the road for it. I couldn't have gotten nearly the same
discount on a Prius (msrp $22,175)) and at current gas prices the Prius
wouldn't save the equivalent cost in gas to make up the difference in
price over their useful lives.
I can't say that about the Silverado, but I also know you can't haul 55
10 ft. 2X4's in a Prius.
I'm all about reducing the amount of oil we import, but the hybrid is a
poor solution to our problem of reliance on foreign energy sources.
I forgot they made one.
The Camry Hybrid and Camry XLE seem pretty comparable in price and
options, if you go with CVT with both.
The XLE with the most expensive package is about $2k less than the
Hybrid with the most expensive package or about 5% or 6% of the cost of
That works comparing the top of the line vehicles, but if you don't want
all those options, you're still stuck buying a lot of them with the hybrid.
I wasn't thinking about options, I was thinking about size. A Camry is a
bigger car than a Prius, so I don't think that's a valid comparison.
More to the point-- I would never consider buying a Camry when I can get
a more economical car that serves my needs and gets better mileage. I
couldn't have gotten any new Camry for under $15K new.
Based on an older post:
and using US figures
2007 Prius: http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
2007 Camry and Camry Hybrid: http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html
2007 Corolla: http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html
I'm not quite sure why you are comparing the Prius with the
The Prius is a mid-size, and the Corolla is a compact. A better
comparison is to the mid-size Camry. And the EPA tests are
standardized, so you should use the same tests for comparason (city to
city or highway to highway or combined to combined).
Car Sum (interior+cargo volume) Diff to Prius
Prius 110.6 (96.2+14.4) +0.0
Camry 116.4 (101.4+15.0) +5.8
CamryH 112.0 (101.4+10.6) +1.4
Corolla 103.9 (90.3+13.6) -6.7
all listings in cu. ft.
Car City Highway
Prius 60 51
Camry 24 33
CamryH 40 38
Corolla 30 38
150,000 EPA miles, @ $3/gallon:
Prius @ 60MPG (city): 2500 gallons, $7500
Camry @ 24MPG (city): 6250 gallons, $18750, diff +$11250 to Prius
CamryH @ 40MPG (city): 3750 gallons, $11250, diff +$3750 to Prius
Corolla @ 30MPG (city): 5000 gallons, $15000, diff +$7500 to Prius
Prius @ 51MPG (highway): 2941 gallons, $8824
Camry @ 33MPG (highway): 4545 gallons, $13625, $4811 diff to Prius
CamryH @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius
Corolla @ 38MPG (highway): 3947 gallons, $11842, $3018 diff to Prius
But since you are comparing to a Corolla, we should use an accurate
comparison of the Prius and the Corolla, which means comparible
options. Since the Prius is an automatic (eCVT) v4 engine (MSRP
$22795 including the $620 Delivery, Processing, and Handling fee),
I'll use automatic Corolla LE (v4 engine) (MSRP $17035 with same $620
Then start adding in options. It looks like a number are standard
between the Corolla LE and the Prius: Power Windows, Power Door Locks,
Engine Immobilizer, Power Side Mirrors (Prius' is heated too), AC,
Remote Keyless Entry, 6 Speaker AM/FM/CD, Tilt Steering Wheel, and
Dual front airbags.
The Prius also includes ABS with tire pressure monitors, Traction
Control, Cruise Control, side and curtain air bags, a Rear Spoiler
(it's small, but it's there,) and Alloy wheels, which the Corolla LE
doesn't have standard, but available as options. ABS/tire pressure
monitor/traction control is package AB (MSRP $390), Cruise contol is
only available in the audio value package VV (MSRP $200) (this will
replace the Corolla's AM/FM/CD with a AM/FM/6 disc CD (same speakers)
so we add $589 for a 6-disc CD changer accessory to the Prius (which
then has a 7- disc CD capacity fyi)). Rear Spoiler accessory RF for
the Corolla is $425, and Alloy Wheels are package AW (accessory price
$499, package MSRP $390). The side airbags is package BE (MSRP
$655). To summarize, 390+200+425+390+655 = $2060 to add to the
Corolla to make it comparable to the Prius, while adding $589 to make
it comparable to the Corolla.
So that's 17035+2060 = $19095 for the Corolla LE w/ the appropriate
options and accessories. The Prius with the 6-disc changer is
22795+589 = $23384. The difference in MSRP is $4289 more for the
Prius than the Corolla.
Now, there's also tax incentives for the Prius. The US Federal
tax Hybrid Credit comes into effect, which for the 2007 Prius
purchased now through September 31, 2007 is $787.50.
There's also state incentives, depending on where you live (CO gives
$3,013 credit for a 2007 Prius (see
), for instance), but I'll ignore those state incentives for now
it's location dependent.
So with the current $787.50 Fed income tax credit as stated above,
price difference drops from $4289 to $3501.50.
So, if you always drove your car according to the EPA highway test
cycle, and gasoline was a stagnant $3/gallon over the time it takes
you to drive 150,000 miles, and you purchased a vehicle today, and
ignoring sales or excise taxes (based on the vehicle price): To
purchase the Prius you'd spend $3601.50 more than on the comparable
Corolla LE, but after 150,000 highway miles you'd spend $3018 more on
the Corolla LE than on the Prius.
So, just comparing similar vehicles MSRP with their expected fuel
you'd pay $483.50 more for the comparable 2007 Corolla LE than for the
YMMV with state incentives of course. Also, for really calculating
ROI on a vehicle (not just purchase price and gasoline cost), you'd
need to calculate the different cost for maintenance, insurance, and
the big one: depreciation, which definitely makes the Prius even more
Yes, but you're not listening to me. I didn't buy a Corolla LE for 19K.
I bought a Corolla CE for 14.4K. I don't care about an apples-to-apples
comparison of similar features, since I do not desire to purchase a car
with any of those features. You loaded your comparison Corolla to the
max with stuff that isn't included on my car. I don't have a CD changer,
or side airbags, or a moonroof or any of a number of things you padded
onto the comparison.
According to your final argument, which you calculated using the 19K
number, the Prius would save me $483. If we redo the calculation using
the car I actually own, it turns out that I save $4600 minus the $438,
for a total savings of $4162. Depreciation isn't a factor, since the car
will never be traded. I'll drive it until it isn't functional then go
out and buy a new one.
Oh, another thing---my Corolla is a 5 speed, so the mileage figures
should be 32-41, making the mileages you calculated a tad too low for my
I will confess to being surprised by the interior volume figures you
posted. I would never have dreamed the Prius has more interior room than
a Corolla. It certainly doesn't look that way on the outside.
I'm not sure my earlier response articulated my overall point well
enough, so I'll try again. To me, comparing the Prius and the Corolla is
valid because the Corolla is the Toyota product I would buy by default.
To me as a consumer, it's the Corolla that the Prius would be competing
Unlike the average consumer, I actually prefer to buy the stripped down
models with manual transmissions, crank windows and manual locks. My new
Corolla is a bit of a departure in that it has power windows and
locks--I got them essentially thrown into the deal since this particular
car was on the lot and they would rather have absorbed the difference
than gone to retrieve the dealer trade I was actually negotiating for.
My point in sharing this background information is that there doesn't
seem to be such a creature as a stripped down Prius to satisfy my
particular purchasing preferences.
So to me as a consumer, Toyota is stacking the deck against the Prius by
not knocking a few thousand off the sticker by selling a base model
without the myriad options. I realize that the loaded models are what
most consumers want, but my interest in cars is getting reliable
transportation as inexpensively as possible.
Here's how I calculate the difference in mileage over 150K miles at
Prius: 150000/55 X 3= $8181
Corolla 150000/37 X 3= 12162
That's a difference in fuel cost of $3981. I paid $14,400 on the road
for my Corolla. To save money over 150K miles, I would have to be able
to buy a Prius for $18,291 on the road. Know anybody selling them that
I already basically said this in another post: it looks small on the
outside, but is designed in a way which renders it definitely roomy on the
inside. I drive a Corolla & the interior of the Prius is larger than that
of the Corolla.
It certainly does look that way for the current model. The first model
could be visually compared to a Corolla, but not the current one.
Then you are ahead already. You aren't driving a comparable vehicle.
You could save even more money by buying used, maybe a rental or fleet
On the other hand, the hybrids tend to be factory loaded with what are
options on the other vehicles, making "as equipped" comparisons slant in
favor of the hybrid. Honda does that on the Civic. For my 2003, the only
option was 5 speed or CVT, and that disappeared the following year. There
was no sunroof option. Anything else was "standard". Taking less profit
on those things that are high markup options allows a finer margin on the
expensive hybrid parts. Ford seems to have a range of options for the
Escape Hybrid. But I don't think anyone buys the stripped models. A
couple of Ford dealers in this area had stripped hybrids available when
there was a waiting list for the nominally and fully equipped models.
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
You can subtract the $787.50 from the savings because *somenone* (the
taxapyer) pays for that. Only if yuou ar a liberal do you ignore such
Also I question your depreciatrion point, especially if the battery pak
has not been replaced before you put it on the used market. The used car
market will be sure to (and should) factor that in.
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
Only if there were no hybrids. I would like to thank you for paying your
portion of my rebate, but the source of it doesn't affect the fit in my
pocket. I think of it along the same lines as the development cost for
Velcro, also funded by the taxpayer.
The used car market doesn't seem to be down on the hybrids. The battery
packs are not a factor yet, and they might never be. Given the
conservative state of charge that is maintained, they might never go bad.
In 11 states they have a 10 year warranty. Eventually, there should be an
aftermarket supply. It's only D-cell batteries. In the case of the Honda,
they aren't even high capacity, a total of $863 to replace them all.
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
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