The Drive-a-Toyota Act

snipped-for-privacy@12.usenet.us.com wrote:


I don't know whether to take issue with that particular statement ("...the source of it doesn't affect the fit in my pocket...") or not, as I don't understand its meaning. If you can explain its meaning I will either agree or disagree. *My* point was that the price to you would have been higher had I not paid part of its direct cost, so please factor in the amount that everyone else involuntarily contributed to your car for any real apples and apples comparison.
I'm not sure what you could say that could make that not true, though maybe there is something I have not considered buried in your statement that I don't understand the meaning of.

Irrelavent to this discussion. We're talking about total cost of ownership of two different vehicls. Let's compare like for like to keep the compraison honest.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Or the morons that pay $6,000 more, for a similar size car like a Corolla, to save a relative few hundred dollars a year on fuel, then need to spend a small fortune at some point to replace the battery pack so they can sell or trade the Pruis. ;)
mike

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Cathy F. wrote:

And your hit on resale will be very big because potential buyers (the conscious ones anyway) will factor in the essential certainty that they will need to replace the batteries shortly down the road.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Just like potential buyers will factor in the essential certainty that they will have a very expensive transmission repair on any other car.
But nobody talks about that when discussing used cars. It's simply a given.
The Prius doesn't have a traditional automatic transmission; it uses a VERY simple and straightforward mechanism that's pretty much bulletproof. So the Prius's Achilles Heel is its battery pack instead. So what? ALL modern cars have incredibly complex systems that make them dicey as used cars.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

That's BS. There is a *small* chance that there will be a major tranny problem on a given used car - yes, it is a risk, just as there is a risk that you'll walk outside and get run over by a truck, but nowhere near a certainty. Yet the batteries have a very understood *finite* life. You're really reaching with that argument.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Nope. A modern automatic transmission is a VERY complex piece of machinery that even Honda can't get right.
The average owner, or lessee, has no idea how to take care of it and/or no incentive to do so. Somewhere at the 100K-125K range, it will likely need serious repair. That's the real world.
The used car buyer factors that in when evaluating a car for price.
So I repeat: standard car or Toyota HSD, both have $3000 weak spots that will show after much use. The advantage is that I can replace the battery pack far easier and more quickly than I can the automatic transmission on the Camry.
What's BS is that you're ignoring the fact that modern auto transmissions are much, much more frail pieces of gear today than ever. No doubt some of that is beancounting, the same type of beancounting that got Honda in trouble for SIX STRAIGHT YEARS on their transmissions that were hooked to V6 engines. They just could NOT get it right. First the four speed transmissions were falling like crazy, with Honda shops replacing three a week, then the nemew 5 speed trannies were designed with lubrication problems that required a recall for existing units and a redesign for ongoing new units. The existing units that got the lubrication kit may or may not fail as a result of that crap.
Honda threw away a BUNCH of their reputation in those two fiascos.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

In my over 35 years of driving and car ownership, I have never had a single automatic transmission repair (other than 2 $20 speed sensors on late model Chryslers) - and that's at least 7 cars with automatic transmissions, and I don't think I've ever gotten rid of one with less than 170k miles on it.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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You must buy some junk cars. I consistently drive my cars upwards of 250,000 miles and have never had to put a tranny in one.

That is pure bull. Perhaps it is in the line of cars you buy, but that is far from a universal statement. Most GM trannys will easily go well over 200,000 with only the most modest of care.

Buy a GM if you want a solid tranny.
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-Mike-
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Yeah. Too bad they're not attached to any cars by that point.
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wrote:

Silly...
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-Mike-
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Surely thou jest.
The GM trans that are used by racers and hot rodders maybe-after they are rebuilt with all the Good Guy parts. Not stock GM trans in production cars. At least, not on a percentage basis.
The older Chrysler trans were pretty tough. I wouldn't say that of most of the FWD transaxles.
Neither the manufacturer nor the consumer is terribly determined to have a good transmission or anything else in vehicles today.
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Four paragraphs of assertion, not one single point of evidence, or even anecdotal experience. Contrasted to real world driving histories of GM transmissions, you claim does not stand up. GM trannies consistently stand up to 200,000 miles of every day use, even when completely ignored by their owners.
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-Mike-
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The tranny on my last GM car did go bat at 115,000, but that is the first and only one that ever did and yes, I've put 150,000 miles or more on many of them. Fact is, any brand will have some repairs, but overall, the GM 4 speeds have been excellent. The last GM that I can recall needing work was the Powerglide in my father's 55 Chevy.
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Bill Putney wrote:

If it is so well understood, why don't you give us some references about the life of a battery pack?
Transmissions, engines, people - all have finite life times, too.
Jeff

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Jeff wrote:

You ever deal with computer UPS battery packs in a large company? Battery life is *much* more finite than automatic transmissions - very narrow bell curve.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Bill Putney wrote:

The technology for most UPS's is lead acid battery.
The technology for hybrid cars is nickel hydride.
You are comparing Apples and Oranges.
Jeff

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Jeff wrote:

Life of NiMH batteries is limited to 800 to 1000 charge/discharge cycles - so end-of-life is predictable to a great extent.
If deep discharged, power capacity and useable life are greatly reduced after 200-300 charge/discharge cycles.
So - yeah - used market value should be affected quite a bit by answer to question "Were batteries replaced yet?".
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Bill Putney wrote:

Except that hybrid cars don't deep cycle the batteries. And the batteries, according to the testing by Toyota, should be good for the life of the car.
<http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm
I suspect that Toyota knows far more about how long the batteries will last than either you or me.
Unless you can offer some authoritative information, I am not going to waste my time answering to an know-it-all who is, once again, wrong.
Jeff

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I hate hearing statements like that.
What that tells me is that Toyota says that when the batteries go out, by definition you've reached the end of life of the car.
That does NOT tell me that the batteries last a long time.
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