How Ford can sell more F150s than any vehicle made and not
make a profit is terrible, but it's obviously related to costs.
Rather than cheapen the product and drive more buyers into the
Japanese camp, my advice to the employees would be to voluntarily
give back some portion of wages and benefits, if only to preserve what
jobs you have left. It's unlikely you'll find anything remotely as
lucrative unless you have some kind of transferrable skills
which is something lacking in auto production people.
At the same time, agitate to remove incompetents from the Ford
ranks who make the bad decisions that hurt the company.
Let shareholders know you don't like what's happening.
-Rich
I don't know where you got your information, but don't be fooled by
creative accounting.
Workers can agitate all they want, but it's the investors who will
decide who to keep and who to let go, and they don't listen to workers
as much as they listen to the profit line.
As for giving up anything, it's unlikely to happen any time soon.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
You do not understand human nature. It really has nothing to do with
being rational or not.
It's "it never happens to me", it happens to the "other guy". And,
"why should I give up anything... I worked to get where I am".
The other side of the coin is... if I give up 20% of my $60K job, will
prices be reduced by 20%? No. I'll still have to pay the same thing
for milk, eggs, and mortgage payment. That 20% means I'll have to sell
the home I've been paying on for years, pull the kids out of private
school, and generally change my whole lifestyle.
Nope, not me. Besides, I'm too good to be let go and this company
knows it.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
Sooner or later, everyone will have to "change their whole lifestyle". In
developed countries, we'll have to get by with one car. In underdeveloped
countries, they will have to trade in their bike or motorcycle on a car.
We'll have to take pay cuts. They'll have to get huge raises. We'll have
to watch the real estate bubble burst. They'll add on to their hut and
watch it's value sky rocket. We'll get laid off. They'll work all the OT
they want.
This is what a global economy does! It levels the playing field. Let us
hope it goes slowly so the ride is gentle to us.
This is only my view of the world.
That might be, but that does not mean that all those people forced to
change shall go willingly into the night... Maslow pretty well hit the
nail on the head with regard to what motivates people.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
Absolutely! Learn more. Be more productive. Work smarter, not harder.
It's what we've been doing for decades! That's what I'm doing to keep my
paycheck.
But there *may* come a time when someone will do it a lot cheaper than you
or me. So cheap, that "the company" will move "over there", move them here,
or outsource it.
My brother *was* a highly paid mechanic for U.S. Air a few years ago. Now
into the second bankruptcy, he's an average paid mechanic. U.S. Air, my
brother, Delta, United, and probably hundreds of thousands of airline
employees cannot spend nearly as much as they did a few years back. The
U.S. car companies are in the same boat. Delphi, the largest car parts
maker in North America, just went into bankruptcy. They are preparing to
break the unions back, cut wages and salaries to the bone, decimate their
pensions, cut the bennies, and reduce headcount like you won't believe.
They are not just fighting for survival, they must change their structure so
they are economically justified. Right now, they are not. Just wait until
China or India start producing a decent car and they market it here! Then,
the shit will hit the fan.
I work in the chemical industry. Most chemical plants built in the last 5
years and in the future will be built in the Middle East or Asia. That's
where the cheap raw materials are. North America's chemical industry is
largely natural gas based. In $/lb of contained carbon it's about the most
expensive source of raw materials in the world. I can see my future being
more and more uncertain.
Don't forget about all that trickle down effect money that comes from the
manufacturing sector, which is what made us what we are today. Remember
when textiles was big business? No more. Remember when steel was big
business? No more. Whats next? Autos, computers, chemicals, airlines,
aluminum, etc., etc.
If you had to chose between paying a person $5/day or $30/hr, what would you
do? That much difference can justify a lot of training, moving the
location, and other stuff.
If it were not for the fact that life is so cheap in some of the
developing countries, I doubt India would want another Union Carbide
disaster. But, it seems that India's population growth is now faster
than China. And just as long as nobody hurts a cow....
Airbus, and a number of others are hitting hard. China is set to begin
building it's airliners. Only special technologies (like the ones we
get from the aliens out at Area 51 - LOL) keep things in check in
specialized areas.
My dad had to lay off all his employees and close his doors after 26
years because he could not compete with the biggies like WallyMart and
Circuit City. Other local, long time businesses have been wiped out by
Office Depot, etc.
Our corporations have lived on arrogance for decades. We've been king
of the world. Unfortunately, we have been short sighted. Where our
corporations plan for 5 or 10 years ahead, China, Japan and others
plan for 50 to 100 years. It makes little difference to them how long
it takes to achieve a goal. It's a totally different mind set than the
west (which includes Europe). Much in the same way others outlook on
life and death to totally foreign to us that it's hard to understand
people teaching their kids to commit suicide in order to kill an
enemy.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
You're not dealing with a personal mentality.... you're dealing with a mob
(union) mentality... "we got 'em by the balls".....
FWIW... let's say that Rich was suddenly faced with a 20% salary cut...
I don't work on an assembly line... I'd rather die first. Imagine.... some
dork in a Robert Hall suit telling you that you have 12.8 seconds to perform
this task.... and that it has to be performed well... It's a toss up.... I'm
sure that the UAW has a pretty good hold on Fords (or anyone elses) nuts....
but I'm also sure that the favour is returned... Like lawyers, union bosses
make out pretty good from someone elses misery.
I do work in a flat rate shop.... Some dork that gets manicures tells me
that a task will take 5.2 hours...... I've done this task several times and,
to date, my best time is 6.4 hours and I was getting on "borderline
sloppy".... Could Rich explain how anyone could justify spending 40+ hours
at work, but getting paid for 36?
There are areas to be attacked... like GM paying workers to not come to
work.... something set up by trade unions - not by GMs request...
LOTS of people work more than 40 hours and are only paid for 40. Just
because some archaic union
dunces don't like it doesn't make it the end of the world for some
people. Other business have faced similar problems with profitability
versus payouts and people have taken substantial pay cuts.
Some airlines for starters. If they want to stubbornly demand that
things not change, despite massive changes to competition in the auto
world, let them keep that attitude up until they simply do not have
jobs anymore.
On 6 Nov 2005 16:22:18 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@sympatico.ca wrote:
In a way, that's a bit like comparing apples to anteaters. Ford, GM,
etc, while the have associated costs of production, don't use the fuel
their products will use, so employees are not dependent on such
influences to alter their attitudes. The airlines use fuel, and when
the prices climb, they are forced to expend more to generate profit.
Ford might produce 100K units, but they don't drive them on the
roadways. Even if they did, there are far more roadways to use. The
airlines have limited numbers of routes to use, and lots of
competition for those routes. Perhaps not the best analogies, but you
get the idea. You have to be careful what industries you compare.
Ford, GM etc are production industries, while the airlines are
actually more service industries.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
The biggest difference between an airline and an automaker is that the
airline provides a service while the automaker manufactures a product.
That being said, they both require substantial material resources to
maintain operations. Ford, GM, DC etc. may not use fuel like an airline
but the manufacture of a vehicle requires huge amounts of energy from
producing finished steel for the chassis/drive train to plastic
components to electricity consumption that requires fuel to produce. I
would bet the total amount of fuel consumed to build, and deliver to the
customer, one vehicle is quite substantial. In fact, I would wager it
takes many years of typical driving by the consumer to equal this
amount. I do agree with MichaelA in that if management and labor for
many industries don't cooperate, streamline operations and become more
efficient they will have their lunch eaten by foreign competition. It
isn't like the old days. Now the biggest threat to both are from
overseas instead of each other.
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 20:35:16 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"
True. My point was that you do have to be careful about what you
compare to what.
As for airline employees, at this point in time they are at a greater
disadvantage because there are far more restrictions/limitations to an
airline. As I mentioned, the competition for limited routes in already
overcrowded skies, by many competitors, foreign and domestic, flying
into insufficient airports, has forced airline employees to see the
writing on the wall much earlier than a manufacturer who makes a
product and puts it in a line with others. Even if GM, Ford, etc, had
to sell at a reduction, they would still be making something to help
defray costs. And airline can't say that about an empty seat. or a
flight that gets cancelled. A big difference between service and
production.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
Plus an airline sells tickets sometimes months in advance so adjustments
to rising fuel costs can't be made until the costs actually rise. Then
again, maybe they buy fuel months in advance too. I read recently where
the owner of Virgin wants to build refineries and storage facilities to
keep fuel costs more under their control. They would cater to the
airline industry's needs.
Do you put the bolts on the passenger side door, or hand out the
tools?
-Rich
If Blu-Ray and HD-DVD require players to be hooked-up to
the internet to obtain "permission" for playback (like the
DIVX horror of the late 1990s) people shouldn't buy or rent
the players OR any of the disks. That incarnation of a high
definition format MUST die.
you're
Actually, I purchased the tools, among other things. Someone else handed
them out.
Most salaried persons realise that if it weren't for the unions, they
wouldn't recieve the salaries and benefits that they do.
Dave
I think you are wrong about that. I don't think the vast majority of
salaried employees even think about the unions and what they have
contributed.
It's my opinion that they think about their paycheck and what they are
going to do with it... like if it will pay all the bills, etc. and
allow for a new set of tires.
I think you'd find that few hourly wage earners give a thought to what
the union did to make the salaries possible for salaried employees.
The hourly wage earner is doing the same thing the salaried employee
is doing. They wondering if their take home will cover the bills and
pay for a new water pump.
The only time either one is going to think about what the union has
done is when the union reps are stirring up the membership when it's
time to renegotiate a new contract.
Workers are workers. They have their own lives to worry about, and let
the other workers worry about their own lives.
In my entire working life, I don't recall ever, whether I was an
hourly employee or a salaried employee, heard anyone expressing such
sentiments. Complain about how that AH idiot it Admin who does nothing
but sit around and get a paycheck twice the size of mine... yes.
Complain that he gets benefits far better than mine... yes. But give a
thought to what entity it was that enabled incompetence to seek it's
own level? Not. And I doubt that while I am cleaning the floor, that
AH idiot ever thought about thanking some lowly hourly wage earner for
making his salary and benefits possible.
--
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang Fastback 2+2, Vintage Burgundy
Your analogy seems to assume that all employees, salaried or hourly, are
mindless drones that are incapable of original thought. While I can think of
a few that fit that description, it certainly isn't the majority. It would
be very hard not to notice that when the union makes gains for it's members,
the salaried often recieve similar gains, or better. From a continuing
employment point of view, it probably wouldn't be smart for a salaried
person to go around thanking the union for it's efforts, but that doesn't
mean that he doesn't know that his benefits are tied closely to those of the
members.
Dave
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