[SOLVED] Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

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Reply to
allisellis851
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Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

I predicted this would happen...

Reply to
Tekkie®

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

Hey Madman, have you checked the hoses yet? Don't bother with pix.

Reply to
Tekkie®

If simply responding truthfully, and providing referenced facts for my response is bothering you, I'll drop out now.

I do thank those who provided advice, and I comprehended *all* the advice, all of which was helpful.

Mostly to Clare Snyder, I appreciate his advice, born of experience, where he is correct that pretty much any shoe that is OEM quality will work unless they lie and, to Clare's point, the specs can lie too.

To Clare's point on the gouges, let's forget about that since the actual spec from the manufacturer is almost impossible to find, and all that Clare found essentially said zero (where to them, zero is 0.000080", which is pretty darn close to zero, I agree).

Besides, my drums are fine so the gouges are just an aside where I merely state that finding a manufacturer's spec on them for *rotors* is damn near impossible (but it can be done) and when I did that, I was shocked at how huge they were (for rotors!). I never found a spec for drums so I'll stick with Clare's "zero" for now - which is fine.

Regarding the cylinders, I saw the post of "how would you know", where that's a question that is actually insinuating more than it's asking - but the direct answer is so simple that everyone already knows it.

  1. Visual inspection
  2. Mechanical inspection
  3. Measurements

That's how you know *anything* needs to be repaired, so the question is moot, as you can't do #3 or even much of #2 or #1 without taking it apart and if you take it apart, you may as well rebuild it, which is likely what I'll do.

Regarding the procedure, I think I have it down now, where all I need to do is do it, so there won't be much (if anything) to report back until I buy the pads, the repair kit, and do the job.

Thanks for all your advice and help, and please do realize that my only differences with Clare are that he trusts certain things more than I do and I trust certain things more than he does - but I understand and agree with all his points.

I will chide anyone who puts "E" pads or shoes on a vehicle, and I always have, since E is the friction coefficient of steel on steel (that's a fact).

Nothing wrong with E pads if E is the OEM pad, but if the Oem pad is F, G, or H, (most likely F though as G and H are less common), then putting an E on is below the manufacturer's spec.

The nearest Toyota is 50 miles round trip, so I am on the phone with dealer after dealer trying to get just one of them to open up a box to tell me what is printed on the shoes. I'll report back what they tell me if I can convince one of them to open a box and look.

Thanks! If I don't report back - it will be because I have no new information for you. Thanks!

Reply to
Mad Roger

Hi Tekkie, Thanks for your advice. Please see my detailed response to your other post.

As for hoses, I'm not trying to overhaul the vehicle - so I haven't checked anything.

In fact, I wasn't even looking for brake issues, because the owner didn't report any brake issues. I was simply rotating her tires for her, and since I had the wheels off, I popped the pins out of the rotor to look at the pads in front and I pulled the shoe off to look at the shoes in the rear.

So, my main goal is just to refresh the pads and shoes, but it's sound advice when I do the job on a weekend to check her hoses and cable for fraying.

So what I'll do, as per your helpful advice, is buy the pads and probably the rebuild kit, and then when I do the job, I'll inspect from the front to the rear all the cables and hoses.

I'll also order a liter of DOT4 fluid (even though it only specifies DOT3), and I'll borrow her kid and replenish her entire brake fluid until it is all new too.

Thanks for the advice.

Remember, none of us differ except that I seem to be caring more about friction for friction materials while others care more about it being the OEM spec - both of which aren't necessarily different.

However, if the OEM spec is E, I will likely refuse to put them on the vehicle as I have never put anything less than F on any vehicle.

Reply to
Mad Roger

I called Rock Auto but they don't do any customer support over the phone. I called three Toyota dealers, all of whom refused to provide the information printed on the pad.

One said "come down and look" but they're 50 miles round trip, so I'll try at the computer first and let you know as the friction coefficient is the most important job of friction materials.

Reply to
Mad Roger

I found a clue to the J866a OEM friction coefficient on Amazon.

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I looked at the zoomable photos on Amazon, where out of about a score of choices for the specific vehicle entered, 3 of the photos had the J866a numbers visible which are legally mandated to be printed in every shoe.

All were SAE J866a FF friction ratings. E = 0.25-0.35 F = 0.35-0.45

Reply to
Mad Roger

Because if there is scoring that cannot be polished out by hand the drum MUST be refinished or replaced. There is no spec because there is no tolerance for scoring or grooving. If you can feelit - it fails. Period - end of discussion.

no - the spec you talk of is how deep the scoring can be and still be correctable, not acceptable - you can machine uot deep scoring as long as you don't excede the machining limit, which is generally about 30 thou less than the discard limit - but on the heavy drums of a 4-runner or land cruiser, is equal to the discard limit.

Give me proof

Give me proof.

. Because there IS no spec.

It IS different. There is NO spec for drums. There IS a spec for rotors, but even there, the spec is for "in service" rotors - not for pad replacement.

meansd you don't have to throw them away if they can be resurfaced within spec. It does NOT mean they can be returned to service asis with new friction material>

Because drums are not rotors and you are reading the rotor spec weong.

Because, as I said, there IS NO SPEC other than if it cannot be polished out, it should be resurfaced, and you cannot reserface beyond the machining limit, which is GENERALLY less than the in-service wear limit

And seldom is a tolerance plus or minus 50% - so that leaves you, at the outside, with 120 mict=roinches with a "50%/-0 TOLERANCE.

With rotors directly exposed to road grit, stones, ets it is obvious they WILL suffer some scoring in use, wheras drums, being enclosed should not. WHAT is going to cause scoring in drums?????

And the spec for rotors is for in-service failure - NOT for tolerance for replacing friction material.

If rotors are scored, you don't get full friction surface engagement, and the "high spots" overheat as they wear in - then when wornin the surface area increases by the annular surface of the groove, and the friction co-efficient of the pads to rough rotors is different than the co-efficient oif friction with proiperly machined rotors (and glazed rotors are different again)

For someone so fixated on friction ratings, you are certainly missing the point on damaged rotors and drums, which have SIGNIFICANT effects on the friction effects of the brakes.

I'm going to step right out and say it - you are an IDIOT if you cannot grasp the significance of what has been said, bothabout friction materials and rotor/drum condition.

Your drums did look OK in the pictures. Now just buy the OEM SPEC linings and get it done!!!! - and before you install the drums on the new shoes DEGLAZE THEM WITH 80 GRIT ABRASIVE PAPER tocondition the surface to properly break in the new friction material.

Reply to
Clare Snyder

Some garden vegetables concentrate trace elements to a possibly significant degree. That said, the guy who calls a restaurant asking for today's spectrograph analysis of the salad gets a click to dial tone. And rightfully so.

Reply to
AMuzi

Mad Roger posted for all of us...

Hmmm, all this have a 589 part number, what conclusion can one draw?

Reply to
Tekkie®

Wow. That's a great point. You are perceptive since I didn't even notice that. There is a PDF that the US government puts out every few years that must contain a lookup for *every* brake shoe or pad ever sold in the USA for passenger vehicles.

I'll see if I can find it on the net because it allows us to cross reference a full number (like the Centric CEN11005890-110AA1436-FF-14-N16) to the actual manufacturer (which might not be Centric who themselves may not even make shoes as it may be a re-brander just like Axxis and PBR are exactly the same pads).

The PowerStop number doesn't look like the full number, so I'll skip that.

But the Bosch number looks like a full number at FB0589-80S?-584-FF-N14-0709.

Here's an older listing from 2011 titled: AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011 It's 176 pages so I'll go through it to see if I can find out more information about the Toyota OEM friction ratings, but I'm pretty sure that it's getting to be a safer bet that they're FF rated shoes.

I haven't been able to find a *newer* friction-codes document yet though.

Reply to
Mad Roger

You bring up a good point which is the "discard limit", where I never delved into whether the number given is the number that you start with or the number that you expect to end with.

I always assumed it's the start limit (but it might not be).

For example, these rotors say 297mm maximum diameter.

Even if a drum passed all other tests...

- If the drum measured 297.1mm in diameter, it would be discarded.

- But what if the drums measured 296.9mm in diameter?

I'll have to dig that up separately as it's on a car I don't even own anymore so I have to dig up the spec for the rotor grooves.

But even if I have trouble finding it, may whole point is that it's almost impossible to find a MANUFACTURER's SPEC for groove thickness failure.

(I understand your point that it's assumed it's zero.)

That may very well be the case, so let's table this until I can dig up the spec I found on an older vehicle.

I'm not sure what you mean by "in service" rotors. Is that just an inspection of the rotors without a pad replacement?

Both may be true.

Good observation!

Another good observation.

Yet another good observation.

Thanks for that advice. I am honing in on the friction rating for OEM being FF, but that's not definitive yet.

That's interesting. Thanks for the advice. I never deglazed a rotor before. I do the standard multiple-60-to-10mph stop that everyone does to bed them.

Thanks for the advice! You pointed out things, as did Tekkie, that I hadn't thought of. Much appreciated.

Reply to
Mad Roger

BULLSHIT. You are an idiot.

ANd your perception is also bullshit.

The brakes work perfectly, and they are OEM spec. The shoes from ford are the same.

Again, they are perfectly serviceable. I can makethe antilock brakes activate on dry pavement at any legal speed.

ANd steel on steel will stop you dead in your tracks - t5he problem with steel on steel is there is no "feel" - it is either all or nothing.

So you don't have a CLUE what you are spouting off about. You are just like your idiot buddy who figured he had to do his own tire service, balancing, and alignment because he knew better than everbody else - nobody else was going to doit right - and yet he had to ask stupid questions about everything on this newsgroup just so he could argue with everyone else.

BULLSHIT!!!

You've never rebuilt wheel cyls before either - and you have no idea what quality the rubbers you will be able to scrounge are either, as the OEM market no longer supplies them - nor does the top tier aftermarket.

Yoiu are an IDIOT if you believe otherwize.

If the spec is fudged, it bullshuit. You don't KNOW the spec is real. You are an IDIOT.

I'm not denying you the right. Hire a materials inspection lab and have them certify whatever product you buy before installing it. Make shure the materials lab is certified and experienced in brake friction material,and that all instruments have been properly calibrated to a certified standard - otherwize you are just guessing and hoping. - you do not KNOW anything.

You are an argumentative know-it-all kid (whatever your age)

No, it's that you put more importance on knowi g the published spec, and lest trust in the automotive aftermarket.

You trust the "marketing bullshit" of a stamped on friction rating, not knowi g who stamped it on, and whether they are trustworthy or not.

I trust major quality aftermarket suppliers to provide the correct parts - and I have 50 years of experience backing me up. When I buy OEM spec parts, I have no problems. If Iinstall "economy" parts, they usually don't last as long and occaisionally do not perform as well.

And there are brands I trust, and brands I don't. Among those brands I don't particularly trust, their PREMIUM products are top notch. It's their "economy" product that is substandard. Case in point. Orange fram filters are sketchy - but their "synthetic" filter - their premium product - is perfectly adequate - as good as a standard WIX, Purolator, Mptorcraft, Mopar orAC Delco filter.

Like I said - GO FOR IT!!!. Hire a materials lab to confirm the spec.

You sure don't seem to be comprehending ANYTHING.

I trust major quality OEM manufacturers to provide what they say they are providing. Ihave 50 years experience buying and installing parts. (and troubleshooting the systems the parts are used in)

And asprin is al;so dangerous.

Car parts and pharmaceuticals are two different worlds.

You are not only an IDIOT but a PARANOID idiot. Lay off the weed!!

You are PARANOID

Particularly crooked companioes like APPLE who have ALWAYS sold the sizzle - not the steak.

I've NEVER believed Apple.

Nobodiy is denying you the RIGHT to do anything. Go buy a set of OEM shoes from Toyota - read the specs on the material., then go buy whatever the heck you want. Knowbody's stopping you.

You know what ASS U ME does - PREsume just does it faster.

Anything to dowith "government mandate" is open to abuse.

No, you trust that the spec printed on the material by some Chinese sweat-shop . Youhave NO PROOF the material meets the spec, or that the actual testing was done to the standard.

What I don't trust is an unknown manufacturer over a known supplier of quality parts. I don't even LOOK at the "marketingbullshit" that you seem to put a lot of weight on.

\ Government mandated specs are, to many, just a challenge to get around them - particularly in the Fractured States of America, where the president is a cheat and a liar and half the country wants to be just like him.

And thiose tests showed the EE pads CONSISTENTLY outperformed the FF brakes pretty well across the board - with the FF brakes SEVERELY underperforming in most cases.

The Dana Ceramic family was the only FF to outperform OEM, while HawkHead outperformed on both Chevy and Ford - and Raybestos and Carquest alsooutperformed on Ford in the panic stop test.

Across the board, EE brakes, on the whole, outperformed the ff, and even the ee/gg combination - so what does your frictionrating tell you????????????

What it tells ME is if I buy Raybestos, NAPA, CVarquest, or Dana (all major OEM suppliers) brakes, I will equal or excede OEM performance - doesn't make a bit of difference to me WHAT rating they have.

If I want slightly superior hot panic braking, at the expense of poorer cold and medium temperature braking I should buy ceramics - and this is STRICTLY for braking performance.

Now, from REAL WORLD experience, both myFord Aerostrs wentthrough rotors like crazy - untill I put on NAPA's Carbon Metallics a set of pads destroyed a set of rotors at about half of pad life - and I mean TOTALLY DESTROYED, here in Southern Ontario. That came out at just over a year.

When I went to NAPA Carbon Metallics, the same rotors lasted for TWO FULL SETS of pads - and over 5 years - and I was able to actually lock the front wheels on dry pavement (rear ABS only) - which NONE of the other brakes were capable of doing.

Never looked at the friction rating - never needed to, because friction rating doesn't tell the whole story (as your reference so elegantly proved)

Nope - The BRAND can tell you what to expect inside.

I beg to differ.

And there again you would be WRONG.

Seafoam is a VERY EFFECTIVE and HANDY TOOL for solving MANY fuel related (and some other) problems - and has been for decades.

Nope.

Boy Racer brands - Boutique manufacturers - not handled by any major distributor -

Yup - Australian engineered, chinese manufactured mail-order/online marketing excercise.

Not if I don't know the manufacturer - and as your example of thecop car test so elequantly shows - the ratings, on the whole, don't mean SQUAT - and beyond that they do NOT tell the whole story.

Who said I trust websites??? You are the one giving aznd asking for web references and specs - not me.

I DON'T trust website blurbs - I trust EXPOERIENCE - and I have 50 years of it. - half of that actively involved with the profucts on a daily basis - long before the internet.

NOpe - all you trust is "marketing " - because that's all the friction ratings are. They are a "comparison tool" - and a poor one at that, as your tests proved.

And both are LIKELY crap

You think Chinese producers can't lie????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Ha Ha Ha!!!

BULLSHIT

Damned right there is.

Damned right it dioes.

You can have 5 different FF pads - and one will be noisy as hell, one will eat rotors for lunch, onde will corrode as soon as it SMELLS salt, and another will turn to gravel the first time you get it hot - ALL FF rated (or ef, or ee. or FE )

The fact it met the test requirements ONCE in the lab means NOTHING about quality

The PR is NOT an "economy" AXXISS pad, it is a pad sold at a lower markup by a different marketing company.

NAPA, WAGNER, Raybestos - ALL make more than one grade of pad - prermium and economy being the upper and lower end - often with a few in between.

You know squat.

Boy, do YOU have a lot to learn.

Well, I have a feeling I'd be telling you the same.

Good luck!!

Reply to
Clare Snyder

o thios is not your own vehicle and you are doing brake work on it?

Ihope to hell you have good insurance!!!!!!!!

Call your insurance company and tell them what you are doing. It is ILLEGAL in most provinces and states - and financially VERY dangerous foran unqualified person to do safety related repairs on a third party's vehicle.

Then you are CRAZY as MOST vehicles come with ee, or at best EF brakes standard equipment.

Reply to
Clare Snyder

I can't say that I'm impressed about your powers of prediction. This happen s frequently. A guy starts out with a simple question and then the thread g et blown up and expanded beyond all rhyme or reason. The OP got the answer to his question early on but it's still steamrolling on. I'm not sure what the heck is going on. My guess is that this phenomenon will be studied and understood in the future by AI robots. Of course, I won't be able to say th at "I predicted this would happen..." because the AI robots will have exter minated us all by then. That's the brakes.

Reply to
dsi1

Pay up your insurance first - this is a third pary vehicle - you need a commercial garage policy to cover your liability - and as a non qualified mechanic, good luck getting insurance. If something goes wrong aznd someone is killed, or worse yet maimed for life, wheather the brakes actually CAUSED the accident or not, you will be fighting an expensive lawsuite - even if you win, it will cost you BIG TIME. -

ANd yet even police cruisers come from the factory with EE pads - according to the information you provided.

Reply to
Clare Snyder

Don't know about you, but those sure don't look like "disc brake shoes" to me!!!!

And they couldwell be "stock photos" too - not necessarily what youare buying. You are putting a lot of "trust" in Amazon.

Reply to
Clare Snyder

I think progress was made today with the realization that FF is probably the Chase Test SAE J866a friction designation for the OEM shoes.

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My focus on specifications may be bullshit, I agree, as it's a matter of trust in the specification for the SAE J866a Chaste Test results.

Your focus on a billion web sites all accurately portraying "meets OEM quality" is also subject to trust.

A web site may make all sorts of claims (say, for Axxis "performance" pads), while another web site sells the base pads (say, for PBR "economy" pads) where the numbers printed on the pads can tell me that they're the exact same pad because marketing can say almost anything they want as long as the pads fit.

Luckily, the numbers tell us if they're the same pads, or not: AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011

That's great but you saw the mention that EE brake pads are only marginally better than no brake pad at all.

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You have a friction coefficient at a variety of temperatures of somewhere between 0.25u to 0.35u, which is a wide range.

I personally have chided *anyone* who uses EE pads, especially those who did it without knowing that they were EE pads, becaues I would use FF pads which have a measurably higher friction coefficient of somewhere between

0.35u to 0.45u, which itself is a huge range.

I agree with you, as always, since I've *seen* rotors worn to their ribs, and the cars were still being driven on the road.

All I'm saying, and all I ever said, was that I have never put EE pads or shoes on any vehicle and I hope that I never will.

FF is fine for me as long as that meets OEM specs.

We're talking about the SAE J688a Chase Test whose results are printed on

*every* brake pad and shoe sold in the USA. This information has been around for many years. Here is the PDF from 2011 for example:

I'm sorry if my adult conversation with you has offended you. We don't disagree on the technology.

We simply disagree on the level of trust.

For example, you trust EE pads far more than I do (and that's fine). You also trust that every web site accurately portrays "meets OEM specs" far more than I do, and that's fine.

Apparently you don't trust the SAE J866a Chase Test results, which are printed on every brake pad and shoe - where I do.

We don't disagree in concept - we merely have different trust levels in different sets of data.

I agree with that that what really matters is real-world experience, where, you'll note, this report looks at EE and FF pads in Police Cruisers in depth:

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Actually, I do. If we trust in the SAE J8866 Chase Test results, we do know a *lot* about the friction at various temperatures. And, if we match the entire code, we know *who* actually manufactured the pads/shoes (e.g., we'd know that some are just rebranded versions of others).

So, it seems you may be under estimating the huge amount of knowledge there is in the direct result of SAE J866a tests printed on every brake pad and shoe sold in the USA today.

We can tell if two pads from two different brands are the same pad, and we can tell who actually makes every pad sold in the USA today.

It's all here, all 176 pages of it:

I'm far younger than you are and not as experienced as you are. I don't have any experience with drum brakes. Like many here, I have an engineering degree but it's not in this field.

Brands are a marketing gimmick. The 176 page document proves that.

I apologize that you feel I don't comprehend your statements. I think we have a difference in trust. You don't trust SAE J866a Chase Test results; I do. You trust marketing branding; I don't.

It's not a matter of comprehension - but a matter of levels of trust.

VW was making cars for a long time, but they screwed the consumer. Apple is an extremely trustworthy brand, but they screwed the consumer. Wells Fargo is a great brand, but they were fabricating accounts.

What do you have against me being able to read the numbers on a brake shoe to tell if two brake shoes are either identical in all ways, or if they are made by the same (or different) manufacturer?

Why would you hate me having that information?

I'm sorry if you think that being able to read the numbers printed on a brake shoe in order to tell if that shoe is identical to another shoe or made by the same company makes me a paranoid idiot.

I'm sorry if knowing the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient of a friction material makes me a paranoid idiot.

There's nothing I can say to you if you think that, which will change your mind. We must just disagree.

You seem to think information about friction for friction materials is bad. I seem to think it's a fundamental first order data for any friction pad.

We will just have to disagree.

I'm sorry you think I'm paranoid for wanting to know what the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient is for the OEM shoes and for the shoes that I put on the vehicle.

One thing that this "paranoia" will get me, and that's the fact that I hope to *never* put on any vehicle the same pads you put on yours, since EE pads are, as you know, only marginally better in friction than no pads at all.

Well - we do *agree* on one thing! :)

See! There *is* common ground between us!

Actually, at $157 a set, I can't ask the owner to pay that much for an SAE J866a Chase Test FF shoe when I may be able to get an SAE J866a Chase Test FF shoe from the *same* manufacturer for around 20 or 30 bucks.

It's all in the branding that the 176-page PDF decodes for us.

I'm younger than you, so I don't know all those clever repartee's yet.

Agreed. But you don't have any proof, do you, that the SAE J866a Chase Test is being abused?

Even if it was abused, the standards require all pads to state their actual company of origin no matter what brand.

Why do you hate me having this information of who actually made the shoe?

Just a moment ago you repeatedly claimed I was paranoid. Now you claim that the SAE J866a standards as reported in this 176-page PDF are all faked?

AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011

Where's your shred of proof?

Why don't you trust that the number on pad 1, if it's the same as the number on pad 2, even if the brand is completely different, is the same pad?

I'll open a separate discussion for the police report, as you bring up some very good points when you assert the EE pads outperformed the FF pads.

Reply to
Mad Roger

ASS U ME make an ASS of YOU and ME

If you are so smart how come you couldn't come upwith the current edition of the report?

Quite some engineer, Isee.

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is the Dec 8, 2017 versiion

Reply to
Clare Snyder

Google "counterfeit brake pads"

The results should shock you and change your mind.

Reply to
Clare Snyder

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