R12, R134, what's next?

How long is patent for R134 valid? Pretty soon I think, right?
Isn't it about time for some environmental catastrophe to be discovered, which will force us all to switch from R134 to some new
patented formulation?
How come we don't hear about the ozone hole anymore? It was all the rage in the early 90s, and I am fairly certain that R12 is still widely used outside united states.
viktor
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The change had nothing to do with patents in the first place... The patents for R12 went out in the 1950's, and a number of companies were making that product.
There is now a global ban relating to chlorofluorocarbons, but it is not totally phased out yet.
Measurements by the Japanese and by NASA have showed that the ozone hole is healing and the CFC levels are dropping..
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/07/030730080139.htm
I just had my 90 Reatta converted to R134, and it works fine, is easy to come by. I had to replace the compressor anyway, due to a leak, so went the whole way.
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Roger Blake wrote:

A while back, I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations using figures from NASA and envirowhackos. I wildly overestimated world R12 production since its invention, and placed ALL of it into a cubic mile of stratosphere, and using NASA's estimate that 1 molecule of R12 destroys 100,000 molecules of ozone, I couldn't destroy all the ozone in that cubic mile, even when I shut off the sun's ability to make new ozone there. Now, my calculations could be off by an order of magnitude or two. But when you consider how hugely many cubic miles of stratosphere there are, it begins to be clear that my figures can't possibly be that far off.
It's incredibly arrogant to believe that mankind could possibly ever do anything to cause such major change to Earth as damaging the ozone hole or global warming.
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On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:48:33 -0500, clifto wrote:

Besides, isn't ozone a major component of smog? pump the smog from LA and Mexico City up to the hole in the ozone layer and solve three problems at once.
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Wrongway Napolitano wrote:

How do you propose doing that when ozone in the lower atmosphere breaks down in less than 15 seconds?
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On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:52:18 -0700, larry moe 'n curly wrote:

Couldn't say. Why don't we give it to GreenPeace, they've got all the answers, don't they?
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Wrongway Napolitano wrote:

That's not a real answer from you.
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larry moe 'n curly wrote:

That's why the cities never had smog, because ozone decomposes so fast down here.
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clifto wrote:

Did you get that from the same source that told you mankind can't cause major damage to Earth? Ozone at the surface comes from nitrogen oxide reacting with O2.
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larry moe 'n curly wrote:

The news services used to report that scientists said that ozone was a major component of smog. Obviously, you have proven them wrong.
Now will you get the weather forecasters to quit issuing those bogus ozone alerts?
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clifto wrote:

You're not reading correctly.
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larry moe 'n curly wrote:

So you haven't proven them wrong?
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The research shows that that is exactly what happened however, arrogant or not.
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snipped-for-privacy@nospam.nix wrote:

If you keep repeating it, you might start to believe it.
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Believe what you want.... Environment is a broad subject. Recent surveys, which I am sure many of you will not believe anyway, indicate that there are now only about 10% of the fish in the sea that there were a few decades ago. That was a resource we thought was impossible to kill off because it was so vast. But we seem to be managing it.
This is a result of overfishing and pollution, apparently.
New studies published just last week estimate that the northern polar ice cap will disappear totally, and will not refreeze, within the century. Earliest models show it will happen by 2040, but others say it might last until nearer 2100.
IF TRUE ( and we can argue whether it is or not...neither of us knows, one way or the other) this seems serious, for our children. Most of us are old enough that we can continue to crap in our nests and will not live to see the outcome.
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I am NOT a liar,am not uneducated, and am not stupid...
Scientific data IS up for interpretation, and there is a certain amount of error inherent in every measurement.
There is also the human tendency to deny data which is inconvenient. If you dont like the scenario, then just say it isnt so. Which are you?
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I do beg to differ, NO climatological research exists to support your claim, what does exist is modeling and simulation predicting what the outcome *might be* (if the underlying mathematics are correct) if global warming was in-fact occurring... this is not remotely-related to your unfounded statement that research shows any such thing... more unfounded hysteria...
snipped-for-privacy@nospam.nix wrote:

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Computer modeling and simulation is used in hundreds of industries to save millions of dollars in testing. It has proven it's worth over and over and over. In fact one of the earliest industries to do it was the military industrial complex. If anything, the climatologists are johnny-come-latelys to the science of computer modeling.
If you want to dispute the global warming models then your welcome to attack the input data being used to feed the models. But attacking the models themselves show your nothing more than an ignorant blowhard.
Ted
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"clifto"

Uh huh... post up your math. I'd love to see it.

Might want to wildly guess at other sources of CFC as well - like just about every aerosol can on the planet, at the time.
- D
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Dll wrote:

One of these days when I have some time, I plan to re-do the whole process and put it up on my web site. Right now, it's a fair amount of work that has to wait for car repairs.
I didn't expect to convince anyone by mentioning it. I was saying that I convinced myself, and outlined the procedure I used.

You're looking at "sources" where the CFCs actually hit the air. I was looking at "sources" as in manufacturers. The stuff in your aerosol cans came from the manufacturers, so it was in my estimates.
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