How to Find a Used Car with ESC

ESC is the most important non-retrofittable safety feature in history, but it takes some effort to make sure the used car you buy has the feature:

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Reply to
Tom Adams
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Oh ESC will, but it does not take away from the fact that some drivers DO drive right on the limit... USA would be a Minivan overtaking on the outside around a Cloverleaf... outside the USA there is a large company car culture does abuse cars in such a manner, it is seen by some as a "priviledge"... USA does not have that culture (military humvee drivers and rental drivers excepted of course :-)

ABS "did not work" because 1) people did not know how to use it 2) did not push the pedal hard enough anyway requiring braking assistance systems to be added. ABS requires skill on the part of the driver, arguably skill which if present would negate the need for ABS in most instances anyway. ABS permits a low skill driver to steer whilst braking hard, ESC permits a low skill driver to steer abusively AND retain control. Most drivers are low skilled, ESC can outperform the most skilled driver as demonstrations have show on "sheet ice".

Fundamentally the laws of physics still apply - braking distance is not going to magically improve. There are compounds which can be aerosoled onto tyres during emergency braking (or getting going) which greatly improve friction between tyre & water and tyre & ice. A few makers have tried them, obviously they require replacement when used up - but could be useful combined with ESC+ABS systems.

No it will not because ESC will hide it :-) ESC works very well, it is the best thing for cars after collapsible steering columns & safety belts.

I wish the auto makers put more effort into making everything non- structural lighter. An "eco-car" would be one with HVAC for hot climates, electric window for driver-only, everything else cut as light as possible. Not daft hybrids. Every 10kg you save in weight has a direct chain benefit in tyre/brake/suspension/engine weight.

A car body is only about 280-350kg, the glazing is a fair weight, but so is all the junk in the car. Ever thinner steel is just creating a shorter-life car - particularly where it is often used in the most rust susceptible areas such as wheel arches / fender liners (0.7mm and I believe one european car is now using 0.6mm, surface rust becomes perforation overnight).

Interesting someone said ESC will aid 4x4, indeed, if ESC can prevent a sideways slide into a road rut, kerb etc it will stop a rollover. However the laws of physics still apply - a top heavy car impacting with something will still roll.

ESC is great, some people may use it to drive at the limit knowing the car will bail them out. Time will tell if people adapt to this new found skill enhancement, it would be interesting to look for higher impact speeds on corners - that is to say the small %age of accidents involving speed and corners may show an increase in speed, but the large %age of other accidents may show ESC benefits.

Overall ESC is good, just beware the mini-van now with ESC overtaking on your outside :-)

Reply to
js.b1

On 09/29/2011 05:30 AM, Tom Adams wrote: <snip idiot bs spam>

what? empty head?

Reply to
jim beam

What's your point?

Reply to
Tom Adams

that you're an ignorant useless spammer. surely that's obvious.

Reply to
jim beam

Says who? It is mostly worthless, but costs alot.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

I have seen articles in the past which claim that this feature is highly effective, and is one of the best things you should order on your car.

I have them on both our cars, and I just take it by faith they are worth the money. My still being alive is just anecdotal.

Reply to
hls

Just to cite something recent, says the IIHS:

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IIHS raises the possibility that SUVs may now be safer than sedans. ESC cuts the rollover risk, and SUV still have an advantage do to passenger height.

Reply to
Tom Adams

@dont-email.me...

.

On faith? NHTSA had to to a cost-benefit study before they could impliment the mandate. It passed with flying colors.

Reply to
Tom Adams

I am not a spammer, and I am certainly not as ignorant as you on this issue.

Reply to
Tom Adams

It cost about $200 per vehicle.

Before it became required for the 2012 model year, it tended to get packaged with the higher priced trims.

But as of the 2012 model year, it's a commodity so there will be essentially no markup. It provides savings in terms of insurance premiums, medical costs, car repair costs, taxes, funeral expenses, lost wages.

Reply to
Tom Adams

BS!!!!!! NHSTA actaully pushed this through with very little study. They didn't want to make the same mistake they made with ABS brakes. They tried to prove ABS brakes were an effective saefty device and despite years of study, the best they could "prove" was that cars with ABS brakes had more of some types accidents and fewer of other types accident. The net was at best they didn't lead to more deaths. With ESC NHTSA just plowed ahead and used a bunch of theoretical (i.e., unproven) safety improvement to justify mandating ESC for all vehicles. And as far as NHTSA was concerned this had the added benefit of mandating ABS brakes as well. So in the end we got screwed twice. As that blow hard Rush Limbaugh says - follow the money. Who benefits form forcing people to pay for ESC (and as a result ABS). I have no problem with this stuff being offered as an option, but I am very sure it is not worth the cost to society as a whole. Billions are being spent on what at most are marginal "safety" devices.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

You mean $200 more on top of the cost of the ABS system!

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

ESC is useful on poor (wet) surfaces in preventing a loss of control situation.

Unfortunately it also means drivers may be tempted to drive beyond their talent level because ESC will "get them out of a mess". A case of computer behind the wheel replaced by computer in the car. So it is not true there are no risks with ESC.

Additionally I suspect it could bail manufacturers out of bad suspension designs, quite a few cars do nasty things with acceleration lift off (even FWD) and quite a few do nasty things with off camber cornering. It is here that ESC may help fix a poor design cheaper than paying for more suspension R&D.

Reply to
js.b1

follow the money indeed. all this stuff weighs more [which the oilcos love, and if the oilcos love it, our "representatives" love it, thus the nhtsa loves it], costs more, and is back door profiteering for the manufacturers selling this stuff if they can have it made mandatory.

Reply to
jim beam

as pointed out by others, it's like abs. highly questionable on a car with good suspension design, good tires appropriate to the vehicle's weight, etc. but "useful" on a p.o.s. that can't keep a tire stuck to pavement because the manufacturer's too goddamned cheap.

nail on the head. especially with bullshit retarded stuff like solid axles and leaf springs.

Reply to
jim beam

This is not directed at you but certainly if you are a poor driver they are worth the money. If you are a good driver it's extremely unlikely you would ever need it. They really do nothing until you are doing something far beyond what you ought to be doing for the road conditions at the time. You need to do some idiotic maneuver like Consumer Reports does to even get them to come into play.

Reply to
Ashton Crusher

That's one of the most fact free posts I have ever seen!

They used field data. They used the actual fleet of cars sold comparing exactly the same model with and without ESC. Started around

2003 with the first study and the estimates are still holding up well in recent studies.

It's easy to find the studies online. But you have evidence such willfull ignorance that I will not bother to cite for you, facts will most likely not cure your condition.

They did not mandate ABS because they tested it and it did not work, plain and simple.

Reply to
Tom Adams

well, technically the vehicle should be taken to the limits regardless. but i think the driver should bother to learn what those limits are, them make sure they drive within them. it's exactly the same principle as not tailgating inside your safe braking distance.

Reply to
jim beam

..

Studies show that just about everyone thinks they are good driver. Are you suggesting that we put in an objective test or are you just blowing smoke?

Let's look outside your head for a second: Lots of the drivers who thought they were good were doing maneuvers, causing 10,000 fatalies/ year that ESC is on its way to preventing. Now you can go back to being confused again.

Reply to
Tom Adams

That's is a real concern in the abstract, but recent studies indicate that ESC is just not panning out that way.

There is still a possibility that we will compensate by texting more or something and wipe out the gains.

That's strawman, nobody said that there were no risks, it just prevents some wrecks and fatalities on average, lots of them. Try not to make a fool of yourself.

Well, it's got to show up in the wreck data.

Reply to
Tom Adams

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