Re: How to Find a Used Car with ESC



That's is a real concern in the abstract, but recent studies indicate that ESC is just not panning out that way.
There is still a possibility that we will compensate by texting more or something and wipe out the gains.

That's strawman, nobody said that there were no risks, it just prevents some wrecks and fatalities on average, lots of them. Try not to make a fool of yourself.

Well, it's got to show up in the wreck data.
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On 09/29/2011 06:57 PM, Tom Adams wrote:

wow, now /that's/ a strawman! spammer astroturfer fanboi.

yeah, we can trust you for that.
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Oh ESC will, but it does not take away from the fact that some drivers DO drive right on the limit... USA would be a Minivan overtaking on the outside around a Cloverleaf... outside the USA there is a large company car culture does abuse cars in such a manner, it is seen by some as a "priviledge"... USA does not have that culture (military humvee drivers and rental drivers excepted of course :-)
ABS "did not work" because 1) people did not know how to use it 2) did not push the pedal hard enough anyway requiring braking assistance systems to be added. ABS requires skill on the part of the driver, arguably skill which if present would negate the need for ABS in most instances anyway. ABS permits a low skill driver to steer whilst braking hard, ESC permits a low skill driver to steer abusively AND retain control. Most drivers are low skilled, ESC can outperform the most skilled driver as demonstrations have show on "sheet ice".
Fundamentally the laws of physics still apply - braking distance is not going to magically improve. There are compounds which can be aerosoled onto tyres during emergency braking (or getting going) which greatly improve friction between tyre & water and tyre & ice. A few makers have tried them, obviously they require replacement when used up - but could be useful combined with ESC+ABS systems.

No it will not because ESC will hide it :-) ESC works very well, it is the best thing for cars after collapsible steering columns & safety belts.
I wish the auto makers put more effort into making everything non- structural lighter. An "eco-car" would be one with HVAC for hot climates, electric window for driver-only, everything else cut as light as possible. Not daft hybrids. Every 10kg you save in weight has a direct chain benefit in tyre/brake/suspension/engine weight.
A car body is only about 280-350kg, the glazing is a fair weight, but so is all the junk in the car. Ever thinner steel is just creating a shorter-life car - particularly where it is often used in the most rust susceptible areas such as wheel arches / fender liners (0.7mm and I believe one european car is now using 0.6mm, surface rust becomes perforation overnight).
Interesting someone said ESC will aid 4x4, indeed, if ESC can prevent a sideways slide into a road rut, kerb etc it will stop a rollover. However the laws of physics still apply - a top heavy car impacting with something will still roll.
ESC is great, some people may use it to drive at the limit knowing the car will bail them out. Time will tell if people adapt to this new found skill enhancement, it would be interesting to look for higher impact speeds on corners - that is to say the small %age of accidents involving speed and corners may show an increase in speed, but the large %age of other accidents may show ESC benefits.
Overall ESC is good, just beware the mini-van now with ESC overtaking on your outside :-)
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A long long time ago in a land far far away, I overheard a conversation that went something like this:
"I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do - we can't meet the target stopping distances with those tires. I don't think you have any choice but to spec better tires."
"You mean you can't just fix it with the ABS software?"
(facepalm)
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On 09/30/2011 07:43 AM, N8N wrote:

and thus we have astroturfers trying to build support for mandatory esc adoption - it avoids manufacturers having to spend money on "unnecessaries" like suspension that actually works.
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.

,

It's true that it must be costing more for the base models that did not already have ABS.
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In the end I think any Risk Compensation will be mitigated by new taxation schemes.
Government are desperate for tax. - Technology permits taxation per mile. - Extension of that technology via gyro chip & gps chip will permit taxation for speeding, driving style, time of driving, exceeding mandatory speed restriction for fog etc.
Companies pushing such technology will get adoption in whichever Nanny State they can, politicians front run investments in such companies, then gain political (revenue) acceptance and investment internationally, then roll out across Rest of World.
I suspect the UK first - consider 1 Gallon is £6.40 or 10$US re fuel tax. If you implement electric vehicles you lose a massive tax revenue for Big Government.
Yes, business is blood sucking from inside the hand of big government.
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On 09/30/2011 07:16 AM, js.b1 wrote:

no, they're sucking from the jugular of the tax payer. governments don't have money - taxpayers do.
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This is happening, but it is taking the from of insurance companies giving you a lower premium if you let them monitor your driving with their black box:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2326909,00.asp
But you have the Big Goverment part backwards. State insurance commissions in many states are *blocking* the Progress Insurance program. Insurance commissions block lots of available insurance discounts.
As of now, Big Government is preventing it from happening in some states.
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On 09/30/2011 09:30 AM, Tom Adams wrote:

you mean preventing you from pushing your client's agenda? boo hoo shame.
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me.

It kind of flattering that you think I am a pro pretending to be a grass rootser, but it ain't so.
And, when you try to use that claim (or anything else) in an ad homenim argument, it just boltsers my position and undermines yours. You make everyone think "Jim hates Tom's arguments but he can't refute them, so he goes ad homenim". Thanks for that.
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On 09/30/2011 10:05 AM, Tom Adams wrote:

observe the victim/aggressor switch of the self-delusionist.
if you want it to work buddy. learn to spell first. better yet, use the freakin' machine you're typing on to do it for you.
"ad hominem", "bolsters" "astroturfer", etc.
idiot.
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it

ny

r

t.

me.

What does this have to do with ESC? The topic under discussion is ESC.

I am a awful speller, I don't have a spell check on my newgroup reader.
But maybe the spelling is just one of my astroturfing tricks ;-)
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On 09/30/2011 11:24 AM, Tom Adams wrote:

you've just done it again!

actually, it's right there in astroturf 101. go back to your notes on "ordinary joe".
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I had not banked on Gov't being... so irrational :-)
Black boxes are a good idea particularly in USA because of the type of accidents. - T-Bone risk from large number of traffic light controlled intersections - T-Bone & rear-ending risk from "stationary waiting to turn"
Roundabouts like UK/Europe are much touted as "more efficient traffic flow" than traffic light controlled intersections. Yes they are, but as you increase the number of traffic lanes this efficiency begins to diminish - you end up having to add traffic lights to roundabouts! The USA city block layout does not lend itself well to roundabouts, they are situation specific and require driver education. USA has space at least, something UK, parts of Europe & Japan in particular lack.
Compensation costs play a big part in insurance premiums, UK has jumped on the gravy train recently with big (30-60%) hikes in insurance premiums across the board. We got the "accident-tourists". Canada uses a different state run system which offers little (might be cheaper for the young, but government run systems tend to be unresponsive and sub-optimal).
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On 9/29/2011 12:53, Tom Adams wrote:

insurance

To who? answer below.
medical costs
to who? answer below.
, car repair costs,
to who? answer below.
taxes,
???????
funeral expenses,
just delayed, no net savings.

Maybe. Cites???
Answer................. The insurance companies.
insurance premiums. Quote insurance price for the same car with and without. No savings to you.
medical costs. Less expense for insurance company.
Car repair costs. Less expense for insurance company. Your deductible isn't lowered.
--
Steve Walker
snipped-for-privacy@frontierbrain.com (remove brain when replying)
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On 10/04/2011 05:30 PM, Steve Walker wrote:

all good points. i think the real winners though are the oilcos and detroit. the former because heavier more complex cars suck more gas. the latter because more complex cars get repaired lass and net sales increase.
follow the money and you'll find the motivation. it sure as hell isn't about driver/passenger safety or we'd have real driving tests that included skid control, be being encouraged to wear helmets, safety harnesses and have proper roll cages in our vehicles.
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